Franconia Beer Message Board
|Unthreaded View (Date Order)||Calendar of Bamberg Visits|
|View the archive back to day 1 of the board.||How to get there Wiki|
|A RSS feed of the last 20 posts||Search|
Info regarding this year's Schmankerlmarkt now on-line.
Place : Hauptmarkt, NÜERNBERG.
Date : Sunday 27 May (10,00-18,00).
Currently 46 stalls listed of which 10 are local brewers as follows : Wiethaler, Altenberger Brauhaus, Zwanzger, Gundel, Schober, Windsheimer, Kanone, Eppelein & Friends, Dreykorn,
Ammerndorfer. Other stalls include Bakers, Butchers etc so no need to drink on an empty stomach...
Not been such a good correspondent on this visit but mainly I've been doing the same as on previous trips, so you've heard it all before - endlessly!
Visited all the places as before but one new one was Huebner in Stettfeld, courtesy of a nice little ttrip with Juergen, which iincluded Sonne at Muersbach and the Metzgerei brewery at Uetzing, where we ffinally met up with the Scheidts and their friend Johnny. Lovely beer all round and a very pleasant day in excellent company. Thank you to my two chauffeurs!
I'd forgotten that yesterday was Tag des Bieres in Bamberg but was reminded by Frank and Jason. Of course, it was a great day - i drank Herrenpils all afternoon before we all (too numerous to name) decamped to Spezial before making the long trip to the Western Bar aka Faessla cubby hole. Don't remember a whole lot about the evening other than watching an entertaining game of Scharpkopf and Jason sitting sort of indoors with an umbrella while it bucketed down! I hadn't realised that this part of ththe pub was outdoors.
Oh well, only a few more days, then it's off to Prague.
Hübner in Steinfeld. ;-)
Just a thought, perhaps it would be good to mention that Greiss in Forcheim has a Gaststatte behind the brauerei which is open fairly reasonable hours and accessible by city bus lines.
And to clear up if possible whether Barnikel at Hernsdorf are truly still brewing on site, or having the beer brewed elsewhere. A recent conversation with Jason and Barry suggested that the beer is contract brewed,but their website seems to state that the beer is brewed onsite?
Yes, thats pretty much what Jason and Barry said. I assume advertising laws are less restrictive in Germany,as the Barnikel website seems to strongly suggest they brew thier own beer.
The romantic story is that they brew themselves their beers in the brewery in Aufsess (gipsy brewing).
You are right. In Germany beer bottles labels must not declare the place where the beer was brewed. Necessary is only the name of the enterprise which put the beer into circulation.
To use the name brewery pub or brewery for a location of an enterprise which don't brew is borderline. Maybe it's a case of illegal unfair competition. But You need a competitor who complains.
Strange that there is no no EU legislation on this matter. But copyright etc is just a total mess.
Our USA group stopped at Barnikel a couple days ago, but failed to ask specifically if they made their own.
The place needs some updating, probably not doing too well.
They definitely do not brew any more and haven't since 2013 or so. Even when it brewed the beer was very inconsistent (at least the couple of times i visited before 2013). But it's a famous pub in the area so i don't think there's any danger.
These gypsy breweries are getting more common and without proper regulation it will encourage even more. I'm not sure how many brands Brauerei Reckendorf brew but I recently learned Brauerei Fischer in Greuth no longer brews and their beers are brewed elsewhere.
Personally I would 'ban' it as it's an easy solution for a brewery that doesn't have the motivation to brew any more. Normal people don't ask or really care where the beer is brewed (or even who brews it). Beer is beer in Franconia.
Unfortunately that complacency will be a cause of it's long term demise.
Happens all the time in the UK. Classic case is Courage. I've lost track of ownership - at least 3 changes - and brewery moves. Now brewed in Bedford! Tetley's in Wolverhampton, etc.
Oddly enough and thankfully the practice has become less common in the US. Not sure why this is other than the explosion in actually breweries has made it very hard for gypsy breweries to compete. A brewery can compete because in many states here (like Massachusetts) a real brewery can get a license to open it's own taproom and sell it's beer directly to the consumers (i.e much better profit margin) whereas the gypsy brewers have to compete for increasingly crowded space on the shelf of a store or a tap at a bar they don't own. The last gypsy brewery near me on Cape Cod (Naukabout brewery) finally opened it's own brewery and taproom a few weeks ago and gladly for me very close to my house. I literally can kayak across a lake to get there which I have every intention of doing this summer (and yes I will drink moderately and wear a life vest - for those of you shaking your heads right now).
I was more concerned about the kayak Mark!!!
Whale ahoy! Capn Ahab.
Very apt so near to Nantucket!
Thank you to all at the forum for tips. We were a gang of Norwegians who traveled to Bamberg. We came Thursday last week to Bamberg from Nuremberg. We came by plane via Amsterdam. Here is our report.
Day one: First we checked in at the fantastic brewery Fassla. The environment here is amazing. The rooms are simple, but just what we need. The beer was good after a long journey from the north. The reception was efficient and solid.
We went then over to Spezial for lunch. The beer and food here exceeded everything. Both Marzen and U were among several in the group mentioned as the best beer they had ever tasted of beer. Afterwards we went to Wunderburg, both Mahrs and Keesman's beers fall in taste, especially the Bock at Keesman. Wunderburg is a residential area. We all want to buy us a flat there. Lucky residents who live here.
Then we went to the city centre. Bamberg is a city totally different from the cities we are familiar with. When we came to the Town hall ee all starting gasping. We know understand its a Unesco site. When we came to Schenkerla we werw a extremely happy and grateful bunch of of those beer tourists many people despise, but we were welcomed at this beer cathedral and shown a big table. After all the previous beers many if us remembered the german we learned we went to school, so I think that helped us when we got service. Both food/beer and ambience were fantastic. We had a excellent evening before we stumbled back to Fassla.
Day 2: We divided us this Friday morning. Some of started with coffee and sightseeing in Bamberg.
One group went to Andreas Ganstaller in Schnaid. They met both extremely hospitality and interesting insights in the art of brewing from Andy. What a guy and his beers were described as incredible!
We all gathered later at Brauerei Zehender for lunch after recommendation from Jason at this forum. The Lager Bier from wooden barrel was like heaven. Suddenly the sun came and we could sit outside in the patio. Once a again we were feeling blessed. Finally we returned to Bamberg. We visited Greifenklau and Spezial Kellers. Both were a overwhelming experience with good views and beers in nice weather. At the end we finished the evening with burgers at Zapfhenhahn and boozing in Sandstrasse.
Day 3: We checked out and took the train to Forchheim. We went to the Kellers here just to realize that almost all still were closed. That was a mistake, but we tried two of the kellers in the kellerwald and had fun. Afterward we headed for Nürnberg for some sightseeing, Beautiful and very interesting city. We finished the last day at hütt’n. The service and food were extremely good.
Thanks Franken and we will come back!
Great to see the positives and enthusiasm after all the negatives and cynicism all too often seen on these pages.
Yeah this trip report is a nice reminder of how lucky we are to be able to visit that beautiful city and Franconia overall
Great report, glad you enjoyed it. As a Norwegian, I bet you found the beer nicely prived in Franconia!
Beer prices are terrible high in Norway. Franconia had good prices on high quality beer. Glad you like the report.
Nice to read your report. It sounds like you enjoyed Mahrs, which is nice to hear. Thanks for sharing!
Sad news: The www.german-breweries.com website reports, that after the death of the owner Friedrich Weber last year brewing on the premises ceased. Does anybody know any further details?
I don't know about the Weber situation, but I am glad to see german-breweries.com back up and running. There had been no updates there in something like a year and a half.
I totally agree. After a break of nearly 18 months Steve Thomas is "on air" again!
I can report that Weber is open.
Visited yesterday with a group from USA; very good beer, VERY nice place.
Stephan gave us a nice tour of the place. He said he saw us from his bike earlier in the day in Bamberg. We rememered him as the rider who had some unintelligible words for some Americans walking in the bike zone!
Someone said they had hired a new brewer, who would be starting in some time in the near future.
I'm afraid after four days of Scientific Brewery Research, my details are fuzzy!
Plus, their English and my German aren't great.
Also visited Hennemann, Barnikel, Kraus, and Sauer on that journey.
Had a nice visit with Jason at Spezial, too!
Visited yesterday and it was a really nice warm evening with really nice beer and local company: Pils and Lager as it would have tasted in the seventies, I guess, and a darkish Landbier.
Lovely relaxed meeting with Jason in Eichorn last night, where he demonstrated his knowledge of Schafkopf (impressive) and became an object of some fascination to a group of local ladies of a certain age (but nearer mine than his!), with whom we shared a table! Oh yes, and the beer was pretty good - excellent Keller and a very pleasant Dunkel. Nice evening, I can report that walking from Hallstadt bhf to Eichorn took me 25 minutes.
South-East of the Bamberg railway station - directly adjacent- is a largely empty shopping mall (Atrium).
Until 2020 a part of this mall should be rebuild in a hotel with 150 rooms and a boarding house with 50 aparments.
Source (in German):
The Atrium went out of business? I guess it has been some years since I was in there.
Yes. The last big shiop Wöhrl has moved to the Maxplatz before 5 years.
The new plan is to have new shops and restaurants at the ground floor and a hotel about that. The cinema and the parking house should stay.
The Supermarket in the Atrium was where I bought some bottles of Absinthe years ago. I remember the name of the store.
Years ago! Talking to Jason last night who didn't remember it!
Btw, Neder as good as ever. Usual crew of strange customers but they were joined by a party (10?) of respectable looking ladies and gents who brought in baskets of grub and settled down to a feast! Never seen anything like it.
Fassbier excellent (as always) and several bottles of lovely Schwarzer Anna, in memory of Jacqueline - it was her favourite
Arrived last night, after a longish and rather tiring journey but managed a Dunkel and a Landbier (with a bottle of Pilsner mitnehmen). All excellent! Such a quiet place, no one around after early evening!
How did you travel? By Eurostar and DB?
Sorry, didn't notice this before Gunnar. No, flew Manchester to Nurnburg, then dB/Re to Ebensfeld. Leaving by train to Prague (via Cheb because no through trains during this period and want to avoid coach). Then flying back Prague to Liverpool.
One month 9-uhr mobicard now over 100 euro but I'll still get my money's worth!
Via Cheb is always the smart route. Your Mobicard should take you part of the way, for others, this (edited) quote from seat61.com may be useful:
Go the the Czech Railways website www.cd.cz, change the Czech flag to the UK flag for English at top right, enter Bamberg to Prague and - this is the important bit - click More options then Travel via and enter Cheb in the via box.
In the search results, you should see journeys taking around 6 hours with lower fares than those offered by bahn.de. They all involve taking a German train from Bamberg to Nuremberg, a fast regional train to Cheb, then a swish air-conditioned Czech regional express to Prague Hlavni.
You print your own ticket. Simples! And so much nicer than enduring a bus. Booking opens 90 days ahead.
Already booked and ticket printed, cost me all of £12! Seat 61 is great. What's more, as an over 70, local travel is free. Good to get something for our aged bones!
I'll be headed to both next month: Prague May 7-14 & May 19 & 20 with Berlin in between (it was way cheaper to fly home from Prague so I had to go back)
If I should cross paths with anybody, lets have a beer or three (or six)
Sorry Fred, just miss you in Prague by a couple of days! Have fun!
Have just checked the website for this annual Bier Festival (30 May-03 June). 2018 Line up of local brewers very similar to previous years, and international guest brewery represented is Belhaven from Scotland - part of Greene King IIRC. I don't see Scotland being overun with Franconian visitors as a result.
I also found (to me) a new brewery Waldschatz, based at Hausen bei Wuerzburg, who appear to be related to Ines' Beerstore. From much of their website I was expecting a "craft" operation, which may in time be the case, although their one bottled beer currently shown in photos is their Helles. Photos certainly give the impression that they have their own brewing kit on site.
That's indeed a new one. I will be in the Wuerzburg are in a couple of weeks and will check out the shop. Your assumptions are the same as mine from reading the website.
I agree re Belhaven but you may also know that Franconians (and Germans) have a strong love of Scotland and Ireland and actually I imagine this is why they are serving Scottish 'beer'. Of course it's a very average product so I won't be bothering. If it was handpulled I might be tempted but that's not going to happen.
Definitely a chance to drink Meister while it's tap remains closed #geheimtipp
On Tuesday I spotted Helga daintily pouring beers in Spezial - she's back!
On the same night I managed to lock myself out of my apartment, went back to see if I'd left my keys in Spezial (shut, 11.03pm), asked Helga (standing outside) for help which she flatly refused and had to call Florian Merz to get Julia Merz's number to cycle back and let me in. I'm in the dog house with her as she had to get up at 5am. But then they shut too early, so my sympathy is limited.
My keys weren't there so I ended up staying the night in Spezi. I'd only drunk 2 beers. Cost me €20 (Frau Merz certainly had sympathy). Sure, Helga didn't have a key but she couldn't give a s***.
So, why do they emply here, I wonder? Surely other people must have similar problems and there must be other people looking for jobs, even in Bamberg.
Well there is nothing in my message that suggested she wasn't good at her job (that's another opinion). She probably couldn't do much but it's not like i'm a stranger, she could have at least called Julia.
I have started to be a lot more critical with my tip giving. Good service, good tip etc. Ironically I like the servers in Schlenkerla the best (front room).
Oh come on Jason!!. We're not this naive, Admit it, you locked yourself out intentionally in hopes that Helga would invite you back to her place. Sorry it didn't work out as you hoped.
Now that's some funny sh*t right there! I hope to spot Helga next week when I am in town to truely understand how funny this post actually is.
You'll have no trouble spotting her. That much I can assure you.
Nail on head Mark. "Please Helgy baby I have no where to lay my head, except your ample bosom"
All joshing aside hope you found your keys ok Jason?
When Helga is on Spezial property, she is all business.
During an impromptu ‘lock in’ at Spezial on Friday I heard that Brauerei winkler in merkendorf is brewing again, or at least will be in a few weeks. The details are hazy, on account of said lock in, but it is being reopened as a not for profit enterprise. I am not sure if the brewery tap will reopen or not. The recipe is new so anyone familiar can breath a sigh of relief.
If this happens it will be a Phoenix from the ashes; and not something I expected. Not many, if any, breweries I know have closed and reopened excepting Martin in unterneuses and Hausen.
Interesting Hopefully the Tap reopens. It will be nice to have that back on the hiking route.
Oh and very nice job not misspelling anything in this post. I can see from recent posts that this has become a HUGE pet peeve of Fred’s. Well except when Gerhard does it of course
wel sed marrk!
It would be great to have them back on the scene, specially the tap. Arrived there once to find them 'am Urlaub' but at least got to see the outside of this 'spectular' Gestatte. I thought that it was operating as some kind of hostel?
Your killing me!
Sorry. It’s “you’re”. not your. Just wanted to sort that out before Fred arrives.
I've been in Winkler last week. Yes, they are brewing again, just one beer and the first batch will be ready in June. The brewer is Christian Grasser, brother of the Huppendorfer brewer. The old taproom will be probably shot down, but they are working to rebuild an old room as a new taproom next to the brewery. I was impressed by them, it seems to be a great project. The name of the brewery should be simply Brauerei Melkendorf.
Well done everyone!
That’s right - I got the information from the daughter of Grasser in Spezial (she’s dating Florian merz) and this other guy who was at the brewery when you were - he mentioned a group of Italians - i guesses it would be you.
Let's hope that the quality of the "new" beer will be better. Winkler was not a very attractive place, neither the beer nor the ugly - concrete dominated - taproom were really worth a visit...
I agree Pivnizpub...my last visit there was 3 years ago, the mood was glum, beer was literally undrinkable, but the new guys are full of passion and knowledge, i'm sure to find a very good beer there in my next visit
Confused by the overlapping usage of the term Bock beer. Urbock, Dopplebock, Maibock, Hellesbock, Hellerbock, Weizenbock.
There are so many beers looped into the category of Bock it's difficult to know what style of bock your really drinking.
1. Maibock (may bock)- spring beer 6-7% ABV
(Helles Bock and Heller bock - maibock beers)
Ayinger Maibock, Mahr’s Bock, Hacker-Pschorr Hubertus Bock, Capital Maibock, Einbecker Mai-Urbock, Hofbräu Maibock, Victory St. Boisterous, Gordon Biersch Blonde Bock, Smuttynose Maibock, Old Dominion Brewing Company Big Thaw Bock, [Brewery 85's Quittin' Time], Rogue Dead Guy Ale, Franconia Brewing Company Maibock Ale, Church Street maibock, and Tröegs Cultivator.
2. Urbock(original bock) - Schlenkerla rauch urbock beer in October 6.5%. Schlenkerla Oak Smoke is a Christmas bock beer 8.0%.
3. Dopplebock - year round beer 6-7%
Predator, Paulaner Salvator, Ayinger Celebrator, Weihenstephaner Korbinian, Andechser Doppelbock Dunkel, Spaten Optimator, Augustiner Maximator, Tucher Bajuvator, Weltenburger Kloster Asam-Bock, Capital Autumnal Fire, EKU 28, Eggenberg Urbock 23º.
4. Eisbock - 9-14%
Kulmbacher Reichelbräu Eisbock, Eggenberg, Schneider Aventinus Eisbock, Urbock Dunkel Eisbock(Combo style term), Franconia Brewing Company Ice Bock 17%.
The strongest ice-beer is produced by a Franconian company and is called Schorschbräu and is 57% ABV, a former world record for beer ABV.
5. Dunklebock and Weizenbock(Munich Region)
Starkbierfest is a dopplebock festival in March.
Dopple Bock beer from Schneider Weisse
Schneider Weisse - TAP6 Aventinus - 8,2% ABV
Schneider Weisse - TAP5 Mein Hopfenweisse - 8,2% ABV
Weihenstephaner - Vitus Wheatbuck - 7,7% ABV
Bocks are also brewed in Poland, where they are known as "Koźlak" and available during the whole year. Notable examples include Koźlak Amber, Miłosław Koźlak, Cornelius Kożlak, Perła Kożlak.
Once a year Budweiser Budvar brew the 7.5% Imperial with Saaz wet/green hops fresh from the farm and matured for 200 days for release in late spring.
Bamberg tends to brew a special BOCK from October to December. Schlenkerla Oak Smoke is a Christmas beer 8.0%.
Bocks and Doppelbocks are different, but it is not the alcohol content, it is the Stammwürzegehalt wort):
- Bocks have more than 16° Plato
- Doppelbocks havwe more than 18° Plato.
Weizenbocks and Weizendoppelbocks are strong wheatbeers. Bocks and Doppelbocks are strong lager.
Foreigners believe, that spring bocks are pale and automn bocks are dark. But the most automn bocks are also pale.
If a bock will be dark or pale depends on the brewery. In many cases Bocks are only strong versions of their normal beer. If their normal beer is pale, they brew a pale bock. They like to use the same ingredients.
Few breweries offer their Maibock only in the month May, starting the 1st May (p.e. Mönchsambacher). Bigger breweries who sell their beers in markets, like to offer their Maibocks earlier. They wish to sell their Maihocks out before the hot months.
Urbock is only a brand, marketing name. Ursprünglich = Originally, in an old style.. You can also find an Ur-Lager and a Ur-Märzen (Brewery Knoblach in Schammelsdorf) or an Urstoff (Brewery Sauer in Rossdorf).
Eisbocks are Bocks without extracted water.
Traditionally bocks are seasonal brewed beers for the time before christams and the lent time in spring. But some breweries, have seen that there is a demand during the whole year (especially in foreign countries) and so they have decided to offer their bocks all year.
The ending -ator for Doppelbocks was introduced because the brewerey Paulaner has proteced the name Salvator for her Doppelbock. So other breweries has used the ruse to substitue the first part of the word (Salv-) in combination with the ending -avator. An example. Bambergator (from the brewery Fässla).
Your comments clarify some but add more mystery.
"Bocks have more than 16° Plato
Doppelbocks have more than 18° Plato."
Do you mean bock beeers are greater than 16° Plato but less than 18° Plato?
Could you identify a few "bock" beers with greater than 16° Plato but not in dopplebock category?
I don't think I've ever hd a real bock beer by your definition just variuos maibock, dopplebock, dunkelbock, and weizenbock beer.
Bocks have more than 16% original wort and until 18% original wort.
Doppelbocks have more than 18% original wort.
All together are called Starkbiere (stong beers).
Colloquial and legal You can use the word Bock for Bock beers and Doppelbock beers.
You talk about the Bockbieranstich of the Fässla Bambergator. Nobody talk about a Doppelbockbieranstich. And if You order a bock you will get the Doppelbock Bambergator.
An example of an incoherent use of these names is the Huppendorfer-Josefibock. It's a Doppelbock, but labeled Bock. But It is legal to sell a Doppelbock under the name Bock.
One problem is that no law exists to publish the original wort on the label. This information is not a required entry. Some breweries hesitate to publish the original wort because some silly customers confused with the alcohol content. And they don't want to cram their labels with not required entries.
Under the stroke it is a lifted discussion.
" Bocks have more than 16° Plato
- Doppelbocks havwe more than 18° Plato."
Plato is just an alternative method to calculate alcohol percentage. Brewers prefer Plato but the packaing shows ABV.
Czech beer Plato 10°= 3.97%; Plato 12°= 5.07%
Plato of 16° is 7.3% ABV
Plato of 18° is 8.45% ABV
Spaten Optimator which is 7.5% ABV = Plato of 16.34°.
Spaten Optimator is a Doppleboch beer and has a Plato grater than 16°.
So defintion of boch beer still seems confusing.
Spaten Optimator is ABV=7.60 which is Plato 16.51.
Optimator is a Doppleboch greater than Plato 16 but is "supposedly" not a boch beer.
Plato does not directly correspond to alcohol percentages. Plato (== Brix == Balling up to 5 or 6 decimal places) is just a measure of sugars in the initial wort. Most of those sugars will be converted to alcohol but not all -- depends on the yeast used and the specific sugars in the wort and stronger wort usually doesn't ferment as completely as a weaker wort (so the scale is not linear)
Historically, this was often used in taxation as calculating the alcohol percent is tricky and not really possible in the good old days. But weigh a volume of water, then the same volumn of wort and you have the Plato.
Spaten says that Optimator is 18.2º Plato so it is in the Doppelbock range.
Plato is not a linear conversion but there is a calculator to convert Plato to ABV.
Point I'm trying to make that Gerhard's forecast that Plato 16 is a bock doesn't match up with ABV level as those beers are dopplebach.
Spaten Optimator is one example that is Plato 16.51 but falls in doppleboch category.
You cannot convert Plato to ABV -- they are measuring different things. How many feet are there in an hour? (It's like making the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs)
Those calculators are doing an approximation -- that a wort of xxº Plato will typically have y.y% abv. Those formulas are less accurate for higher gravity worts.
Spaten Optimator is not 16.5º Plato, it is 18.2º (or at least that is what it was years ago when I was brewing)
And Gil, I know this pissed you off but watch your spelling -- you've spelled "bock" at least three different ways...
Calculators may be an approximation but then the mathematical formula you're using RE not shown to determine your ability to calculate witha ccuracy. Clearly other web sites believe their calculators are accurate just as you believe you mathetical formula calculations were accurate.
Gerhard has made a statement that bock beers are greater than 16º.
Then Gerhard states that dopplebock is greater than 18º
However, you don't care to address the ambiguity is his comment. Based on that comment a bock beer can be both conditions:
Greater than 16º AND greater than 18º
Obviosuly it's an inconsitency that I was asking Gerhard to confirm versus having a new issue complaining about spelling. Never do you complain abotu Gerhard's spelling.......jsut saying!
So instead of Gerhard getting a chance to resolve his comment your now criticizing a calculator you haven't evaluated.
If bock beer > 16º and a dopplebock is greater than 18º based on Gerhard's comment then it's possible a bock beer can be greater than 18º becausse Gerhard did not define when a bock is not a dopplebock.
Goal should be to list offical Bock beers. If you believe all the information is inaccurate on the internet then it's hard to qualify any formulas or calculators.
With so much inconsitency on the internet and within the blogs including the Franconian Beer Guide, I would think you should show more patience to identify offical beers verus negating a calulator that you do not have specifications to know the approximation offsets.
So, which beers are officlaly bock beers and what justification or metric do you use to
Gerhard is German.English is not his first language.
Official bock beers? If it says it’s a Bockbier it’s a Bockbier. Because that’s what the brewer wanted to brew.
This post started out a little odd and has become absurd. I suggest you drink a few bock beers and think about something more meaningful. And a tip on social convention; if you want help from people giving up their free time to answer your (often ignorant) questions then perhaps be a little more gracious.
Dear oh dear.
Doppelbocks are in general of higher ABV than the average Bock, but I am sure there are exceptions. Dopplebocks are very often a bit more sweet than Bocks (this would be consistent with the higher Plato, which corresponds to O.G., though not necessarily to F.G.). I am not sure of the "official" or "legal" definitions other than what Gerhard and Fred have offered.
Just my opinion.
Can't stop smiling about the whole thread. Euromann, I'd love to have a Seidla or three with you, just to check out, if you're a kind of Sheldon or something. Honestly. Some things are not defineable by a mere numbers.
Whilst conversing with the venerable Barry recently he mentioned that the brewery guesthouse in Lichtenfels seems to be rarely visited by board memmbers. (Brauerei Wichert and not the home brew shed).
I looked it up in the breweries section on this site and its not mentioned, so perhaps you could put it on the database Fred? It is at Alte Reichstrasse 50 Lichtenfels.
Wichert is in Oberwallenstadt (or Lichtenfels-Oberwallenstadt).
That is a question that comes up from time to time -- what "Place" name to use, it's "traditional name" or its current political juristiction.
Bad Staffelstein is a good example. Within the municipal limits are such familiar names as Vierzehnheiligen, Uetzing, Stublang, Frauendorf, etc. So some people say there are 8 or so breweries in Bad Staffelstein, while this website says there are none.
My arguement is that if you got off the train at Bad Staffelstein and walked around you wouldn't come across any breweries and might be peeved.
Also, then I would list Brauerei Hummel and Wagner in Memmelsdorf -- which just seems wrong!
All quite true, though it's pretty hard to detect where Lichtenfels ends and Oberwallenstadt begins!
Whatever, I really enjoyed my visit there last year, in spite of a tremendous rainstorm (what is it about Lichtenfels - it either snows or rains!) and falling down a drain in the market square and cutting my leg!
Which district is Brauerei Pedant in?
If you're a good boy, I'll take you there next week!
Yum! A special favourite of yours will be on I hope, the "Schwarzer Hut"
wow you’re on a tear today Andy!! It’s as if we’re at the Stammtisch of Brauerei TakngThePiss
And whilst we are here we might as well Rate the beer! ( also the tongue and groove)
A definite sign of Franken fever here and still nearly two weeks to go!
Exactly! I’ll have to live vicariously for a few months more yet.
we decided to move along to Oberfranken this morning. Gloser and Schafferhof were not
good this time around. The taxi I dont know How to cancel? Dammn. Short notice I know.
Could have phoned him on the number that I sent!
Soon going back to Bamberg for a short trip thursday till saturday. This time I want to take it easier. Off course I will visit Schenkerla and Spezial, but have Greifenklau improved and have the famous U at Mahrs decreased in quality? Any other changes and recommendations worth commenting from your your guys will me much appreciated.
How about Knoblach is it worth a bus trip?
At Saturday 7.4 we’re leaving for Forchheim - is the Kellerwald something we should explore? We will go with train to Nürnberg - is the ticket valid to hop off in Forchheim and continue to Nürnberg some hours later?
For speed and ease I'll number your questions and answer in turn:
1. Greifenklau has not, to my experience, changed at all in the past years. It's a perfectly acceptable beer, if nothing spectaculor. You can search for Mahrs feedback on this Forum - in my opinion it's not what it was - but best see for yourself.
2. No other real changes that I know of.
3. Knoblach is not somewhere I tend to visit much. I' m not a huge fan of their beer (although nothing wrong with it at all) but it's a popular destination for beer tourists. There are better places though, such as the short bus to Doerfleins and Brauerei Eichhorn.
4. As long as you don't reserve a seat on an ICE you are fine to hop off and continue later. If there are 2 or more of you then buy a Tages Ticket plus (zone 10) for around EUR20 which will cover your group for the whole day. The Kellerwald is worth visiting if the weather is nice. If not then it's a bit of a walk and I can't see it being very pleasant. You might get lucky but early April is touch and go.
Thank you for a helpful answer!
Agree with everything Jason says except Knoblach, which I like. Is it as good as Eichorn. just a question of personal taste.
But another suggestion: Merkendorf, where you can sample, in my view and lots of other people's, some of the best beer in the near proximity of Bamberg, at Wagner and Hummel. If you really want, you can make a complete day and sample Knoblach, Merkendorf and Memmelsdorf - all by local bus. It's a bit complicated but possible, I've done it several times.
As for Forchheim: IMHO, don't bother with the Kellerwald. All the same breweries are in town, including the wonderful Neder.
Thanks. I agree with you on Merkendorf: I have been there three times. In the vicinity of Bamberg I have not been to: Knoblach, Brauerei Hønig, Eichhorn and Rossdorf am Forst so after both what you and Jason said; maybe I should visit both breweries, but It depends on time and weather. I will absolutely follow your advise on Neder when we visit Forcheim. Thanks!
All those breweries are worth visiting, also two in Geisfeld. But they are tricky to manage all together by public transport. Also, when you're in Doerfleins, it is ony a 20 minute walk to the other Wagner in Kemmern, also worth a visit.
So many possibilities!
Only 20 minutes walking from Doerfleins to Kemmern? Are you sure? I walked there from Hallstadt once and it seemed quite a long way.
Are the kellers open in April? Diller-Keller (Honig beer) is on the way from Dorfleins to Kemmern.
Hallstadt is maybe 10 minutes from Doerfleins and then I'd say 20 minutes to the Kemmern Kellers is about right. To the village it's further of course.
Kellers would only open in April if the weather is cooperating, and even then it's unlikely. It was 18 degrees yesterday but next week it could well be -9 again so I'm not expecting Spring weather just yet.
Ok, maybe half an hour for me but I'm 70 something! Come on.
I'm 62, but maybe the knee that has been replaced and the one that needs to be replaced is talking!
You could get the bus up to Tiefenellern on Friday, then either walk down to Strullendorf via Geasfeld and Rossdorf, or over to Memmelsdorf via Knoblach and Drosendorf. The whole route is called something like the 13 Brauerien Wanderweg and is signed, though we got lost on the way to Knoblach. Obviously weather dependent, but I think they are all open on Friday. Worth checking hours though.
Thanks Tiefenellern is option. Walking from here to Knoblach. Seems scenic through the forrest. Long way though. Hope the path is easy to follow.
You'd also walk past Lohndorf and Brauerei Hoelzlein (either to Geisfeld/Rossdorf or to Knoblach).
Thanks I did that some years ago. Lovely trip. Maybe I do it again if the weather turns very good.
For a description of the 13-Brauereien-Weg, check
For planning of walks, I use
The section from Tiefenellern to Strullendorf station, 15 km, seems comfortable and mostly downhill. I think I might try it in October.
Im surprised its that far. Its certainly mostly downhill. Lovely in keller season when you can finish off at the keller in Strullendorf.
Sounds about right - it's a good walk, but with plenty of stops en route. The Waldstuebla Keller is also between Geisfeld and Leeston, though this will take you round a little from Rossdorf.
Another problem: the first bus from Bamberg to Tiefenellern arrives 13.39. With a transfer in Schesslitz you can get there six minutes earlier. Too little time to enjoy beer.
Another option: relatively frequent buses to Schammelsdorf, so you can get your IBU kick at Knoblach. Then walk 50 minutes to Lohndorf (Hölzlein and Reh), 40' to Melkendorf (Winkler now only serves Fässla and Mahrs beers), 40' to Geisfeld (Krug and Griess), 30' to Rossdorf am Forst (Sauer). Bus back to Bamberg at 18.00. 13.5 km.
Some hills to pass between Lohndorf and Melkendorf and between Melkendorf and Reisfeld. Not too steep though.
If you miss the Rossdorf bus, then an hour's walk will take you to the station in Strullendorf with hourly train service (6' past the hour) into Bamberg. After all that beer, maybe make it an hour and a half...
No, I give up...
Knoblach does not open until 15.00, so that walk is not a good option.
I should know the rules for Franconian rural places by now:
1) If there is a good bus service, assume the brewery taps are closed,
2) If the brewery taps are open, there is no bus service (typically weekends)
3) If you find an accessible location with a bus service, that will be a weekly closing day or closure because of the owner's niece's communion or such.
Don't forget the very nice biergarten at Gasthaus Schiller in Wernsdorf!
I stayed there for a few days; top-notch!
Just looked at the map in the PDF - even blown up, the precise directions are not so clear. Just looking at the Wanderreitkarte, much more informative, must see what it looks like on my smartphone.
The directions Brauereien-Weg might be shaved a little. I'm not sure whether it's any quicker going on the Schotterweg from Schammelsdorf to Tiefernellern than just taking the road and cutting off before you get to Litzendorf. Hard to know without doing it.
I would definitely think of taking the bus to Schammelsdorf, then Tief., Lohndorf, Grisfeld (specially Krug!), Rossdorf and on to Strullendorf. Have to check bus times and opening hours but I think that would be a nice walk - as a compromise, I'd go direct Tief and do Memmelsdorf (Hoenig only), Schammels., and Merkendorf by 907 bus another day. Choices! Choices!
I must combine taxi and bus. A bus to tiefenellern and then walk to Knoblach when it opens at friday. A taxi back to Bamberg from here. The entire route is to far when it comes to time. I have walked Tiefenellern to Geisfeld november 2014. Brauerei hönig was closed, but we managed all the other breweries. Beautiful trip, but I found the beers ok, but not as good as the breweries in Merkendorf.
I would personally not say the beers at Knoblach are worth a taxi of €25. I’m not so mad on tiefenellern either. There are better breweries to plan hikes to, using the train.
appreciate your honest feedback, Jason! Thursday I stay in Bamberg. I have the Friday to explore some breweries around Bamberg, but must be back early evening: We’re would you go if Knoblach and hønig aren’t your choice?I would prefer to visit new breweries, but not if they the beer is mediocre.
( These are the once I have visited: Zur Sonne Bischenberg, Wagner( Kemmern), breweries in Merkendorf, breweries in Memmelsdorf, Göller Drosendorf, Brauerei Reh, Brauerei Hölzlein, Winkler, breweries in Geisfeld, Brauerei Roppelt. )
One suggestion would be to take the bus to Grasmannsdorf (around 12noon, arrives 13.10) for a quick beer in the excellent Brauerei Kaiser, then you can take the 13.50 bus to Moenschsambach (arrives 14.05) then there are regular buses to Burgebrach (direction Bamberg) where you could visit Brauerei Schwann. There are then regular buses back to Bamberg.
Brauerei Kaiser and Zehendner are both excellent. Schwann is fine (nice keller, but early April is a bit early).
If the weather is ok and you would prefer to walk I would say train to Breitengussbach to visit Main Seidla (closes at 12noon), then walk to Kemmern to Wagner and then walk to Doerfleins. Regular trains back from Hallstadt.
Or bus at 11.34 from Bamberg to Oberharnsbach, then it's a short but pleasant walk to Brauerei Kaiser (not all buses go to Grasmannsdorf). You'd arrive at 12.30ish so you'd have 1hr 20 before the bus to Moenschsambach which is a bit longer.
Hey come on, Moenschsambach is perfectly acceptable... ;)
Alright. Will visit Glassgou, Ertinburg, Arberdean and Irverness this year. ;-)
Ah I didn't realise I mis-spelt it... I thought you were referencing the ae instead of ä
Yes Moenchsambach. Ideally Mönchsambach.
Perfect. Good man. ;-)
I saw a map splitting the name
ambach (would be pronounced mönx-ambach)
It's really Mönch|sambach (mönch-zambach) which would be clear with the sadly archaic spelling Mönchſambach
Hmmm, I've had this discussion with a number of locals (and a notable pair of Hamburgers) over the years: is it Mönchs-am-bach i.e. Mönchs-an dem-bach loosely translated as 'Monks on the stream' or is it Mönch-sambach which would be 'Monks (of) Sambach. Sambach is a village not too far away near Pommersfelden.
I think the conclusion was in line with Gunnar i.e. Mönch-sambach. What is for certain is that if Mark Anderson reads this he'll be getting cold sweats... his struggle to pronounce one of his favourite breweries in a constant thorn in his side :)
I'll just have to make many more visits and continue to work on my pronunciation.
Thanks, Jason! I will try to do that trip with bus to those breweries. Looking forward!
Really good recommendation - you'll enjoy. Pity it's not a Tuesday then you culd join in with the singing in Zehendner!
Must remember to schedule a Tuesady next month for that trip!
Personally I think Knoblach is worth the visit if you have the time. As always the question is are there other places that are also easily reachable that are also worth the visit or even better. Of course the answer is yes and therein lies the dilemma of Franconia. So many places and so little time and that is why some of us just keep going back.
Jason and others have mentioned many of the other possibilities. I would like to add one to the list of choices as a really nice beer hike. Reckendorf to Ebing. You can start and end on a rail line and there are at least 3 excellent breweries along the way. Schroll in Reckendorf (I will start here the next time I do this). Then hike over the ridge to the next valley to the east and visit the brewery in Hofen (one of my personal favorites). From there onto Ebing for Schwanen Brau which is also a really nice place and beer. A very doable hike with some nice scenary as well. And if you've got time you could add in a couple of the other breweries within a reasonable detour such as Fischer in Freudeneck and Sonnenbrau in Muersbach for an even longer detour. You may also want to stop in at the other brewery in Reckendorf but it's not great IMO.
Remember the day that we did the Ebing to Reckendorf hike. Lovely. Even the young fella doing the runner for the train!
P.S. Jason - did you get my email re Ebensfeld?
Yeah the dash to the train and Hofen and Ebing not being open until later is why I think I will start in Reckendorf next time.
Oer ... I wonder why not. I'll send it via Facebook Messenger.
Visited Brauerei Metzler, Dingsleben and Gasthof Reinwand, Sesslach (Reinwand-Hausbier from Kommunbrauhaus Sesslach) yesterday. Beer at both breweries in perfect shape.
Dingsleben remains on my list Juergen... I will get out there soon!
Hope that you're working out a good trip for my April visit!
That's your job Barry... Happy to drive but you'll have to select where to.
Invitation accepted! Thinking cap on.
Dingsleben is just beautiful. Situated behind the Kleiner Gleichberg, one of the best preserved celtic oppida in Germany, and the Großer Gleichberg, where Vladimir Putin was stationed as a young soldier, this is the Thuringian part of Franconia. Few villages, lovely scenery, heavily spoken Franconian language, good beer!
When are we going?
Is the Walberla an Oppida?
Soon. The Walberla, or Ehrenbürg used to be an oppidum, yes. The Staffelberg as well. And the Hesselberg. And, and, and...
The popular Bier Abend (beer evening) at Hummel will take place this year on Wednesday 30th May. Mark’s admirer will be but one of the sorry people that he won’t be attending this year.
If anyone else is in bamberg I recommend a visit. 11 beers on draft including 1 special, music, food and general beer fest paraphernalia. It may require a taxi back but it’s worth it.
I feel like I have many admirers in Merkendorf but that could be the bock bier talking.
Anyhow, I swear Hummel throws the best shindigs. I def. recommend anyone that is there on May 30th go to that event. I'm basing a trip in the fall around their bockbieranstich and then plan to be back May 2019 as well for either Bierabend or the bier fest in Memmelsdorf again.
Damn! Another event taking place after I've gone home!
I was in town when they threw there Helles Bock Tapping Fest. I regret not going.
Mads - can you post your answer under this new heading. The old one has got pushed way down the list where I don't check so often. Oh, and how many people will be involved?
3 people. From Ferienwohnung Rettinger in Neuhaus to Schwoazhansl in Falkenberg. And perhaps back later in the day.
“Later in the day”
Yeah Well... How good is that zoigl ? Pretty sadening sitting 4 hours with an unfit beer. :-) Back 14.00 Would be Nice. Thanks
saturday 24th March
Ok Mads, an answer for you! Taxi each way Neuhaus - Falkenburg is €20, so €40 for the round trip. I'll get the phone number for you .
I know that it's a bit late but the phone number that I have for Neugirg, Martin (taxi in Eschawo) is 0049 (0) 9681 3915. Hope that everything goes ok and that you enjoy the visit!
For those with Facebook, tune in to the new video recently posted by Mahrs about their recent Weizenbock Anstich on Ash Wednesday.
It's basically the usual s*** about Herr Michel and his local and international celebrity mates waxing lyrical about Mahrs Brau and the Weizenbock and it sums up what is wrong with the company. It shows very little of the ACTUAL anstich or the real people there, those that ACTUALLY frequent the pub every week, not just on the invitation of the high and mighty. It rreally sums up why I have and will continue to be an extremely rare visitor and will not refrain from telling anyone who wants to listen why.
It's fake, just like the barrels. A load of corporate bull*****. Sorry but it angers me.
Yeah I just watched the video. It really is exactly as you describe. It doesn't take a genius to figure out this is all about building a global brand name (and perhaps selling it at some point for a billion or two dollars). I would not be the slightest bit suprised if in the not too distant future they open a brewery somewhere in North America.
I will say this about Herr Michel though. If I had even half of his charisma and sales and marketing skills my company would probably be 10 times the size it is now and I'd be retired. Then I'd have more time to be in Franconian and on this forum commisserating on how Mahrs has gone to shit. But alas I am who I am and I've got to go to work now. Well after a quick round of golf that is.
Gosh Mark, I feel so sorry for you! Will commiserate during your visit here, where you will be sure of a warm welcome.at all the pubs that I'' recommend!
More to the point, the woes of Mahrs, for its regulars, have been obvious for years. I remember ages ago posting about a conversation I had with a local guy who was saying just that: the management had no interest in their regular customers, shuffling off in favour of corporate table booking, etc.
Maybe one day the business won't be so great and they'll welcome beer drinkers again and serve decent beer. As they say, businesses can go down as well as up. Who'd have thought that Maplins and Toys R Us would go belly up so quickly. It only took a months poor trading.
It’s hard being me Barry but I’ll soldier on. Really looking forward to May and will trust your judgement on local pubs.
Mahrs will always have Bamberg to fall back on. Entering the fickle “craft” beer markets of the US and other places will be tough for Mahrs. A local bartender in Mass told me they had trouble selling out the keg of Mahrs as people seem to all want the latest IPA and such and if one does want lager there ample enough local breweries doing that now too these days. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
This is my first-time post on this board but I have been lurking for a while. I just spent the weekend visiting about a dozen craft breweries in the Minneapolis area of Minnesota. It seems to me that the craft beer market in the States is definitely changing. No longer is it about the beer but the experience. There is also a huge ignorance among the average beer drinker in the States. They might have heard the terms Ale and Lager but have no idea what they mean. We visited many places where the beer was extremely poor but the establishments were packed with people.
People in the States are shifting to preferring everything local as apposed national or regional. Even the mighty Walmart has been closing stores due to this trend. A couple of the early and competent craft breweries in the area are Summit and Surly and they are losing market share to these awful startup places. I feel the days of craft breweries like Sierra Nevada, New Belgium, Boulevard etc being able to expand nationally are over. Mahrs will find it very difficult to crack into this market by any sizable amount.
By the way, I will be in Franconia in mid-April and I am planning to spend some time at Mahrs. I did enjoy the place and the beer last spring.
I can’t comment on your opinion on the US as I don’t live there and haven’t visited for 7 years. But I agree, Mahr will not have success in my opinion.
I don’t discourage anyone from visiting, nor would I argue with someone who has a different opinion (who lives here, and whose opinion i respect). Just please give the other breweries a try outside of bamberg.
Jeff, I agree with you 100% that the trend in the US is towards local in the beer industry and otherwise. It's a good thing IMO and hope the trend continues. You can see evidence in this in even the larger regional breweries suffering because they can't compete in all the local markets in the region they used to have a major footprint in and thus they have to scale back (Smuttynose in New Hampshire is a prime example). People simply enjoy visiting their local brewery because as you said it's not just the beer it's also the experience. Someone I was talking to a couple of years ago wondered when saturation in the beer industry would be reached. My reply was when every decent sized town in the US has it's own brewery or two. And lo and behold this is exactly what is happening.
I concur with both Mark and Jeff concerning localization of brewing in the US. I must note that some brewers of so they say the are want to experiment with locally developed fungus and herbs. The brewery is as noted an experience. I would prefer the quality of beer be the experience but one cannot have everything. Hopefully one day in the near future I will get back to enjoy the beers of the Ebermanstadt area to start.
Hi Jeff Interesting comments about beer situation in the USA.
I will be in Franken (Ebensfeld) from April 9 to 27. If you fancy meeting for a beer, give me a shout. Not Mahrs though, you will see from my various posts that I am allergic to that brewery!
Barry, I will be in Prague April 8-12 then off to Bamberg to meet up with a group of 4. We will be staying there 6 days and then off to Windischenbach for a night or 2. meeting up with you for a beer would be great.
Jason, we will have a car so we plan to day trip out of Bamberg to some places that are hard to reach by public transit. We are looking forward to all that Franconia has to offer, beer wise.....
Nice, if you need any tips just ask, just because they are ‘hard to reach’ doesn’t make them necessarily worth visiting above others in the region. But you can’t go too far wrong.
Ok, that fits fine. I'll be in Ebensfeld from April 9 - 27. If you're looking for an of town trip, you'd do worse than consider coming north, it's not that far and there's a great choice of lovely breweries. In fact, you could do justice to the area in one trip!
You can look them up: there's Schwanen, Ebensfeld; Leicht, Pferdsfeld; Hellmuth, Wiesen; Rebliz, Nedensdorf; and, possibly, Martin, Unterneuses (is it open now?); all within a 10 km radius. Then there's all the Staffelstein breweries, not to mention those on the run up from Ebing. Could go on forever.
Sorry, done rather quickly, hence a couple of amendments!
Should be: 'If you're looking for an out of town trip'
Should be: 'In fact, you could not do justice to this area in one trip!'
Slightly changes the meaning.
Would that be an Ebensfeld Stroll? Only one daily bus Mon-Fri. Looks like 3 hours worth of walking. Or do you have some other smart solution?
No, more simple, very regualr trains from Bamberg (or elsewhere). Schwan is 5 minutes walk from Bhf Ebensfeld. Then, if Martin is open, 20 minutes walk (at most); Leicht another 20 minutes. From there, you can also walk to Staffelberg at Loffeld, then 4 kms back to Bad Staffelstein and train.
Alternatively, from Ebensfeld, it's about 30 minutes walk to Wiesen (Thomann, if you're a masochist, and Hellmuth, superb) and maybe 30 minutes to Reblitz in Nedensdorf, then 20 minutes back to Staffelstein, etc.
There's loads of variations; also remember that these walking times are for a (fellow) septuagenarian - young chaps will do it much quicker. And, in a car, you coluld include Trunk at Vierzenheiligen (avoiding Kloster unless forced into it), Metzgerei, etc..., etc...
It's a great area for beer travelling, nice scenery and mainly quite flat.
I would also recommend cycling but not if you fall off!
Great information, thanks, Barry! As (since January) an octogenarian, I will add 10 % to your walking times, but some of it should be doable. I'll add notes to my October planning sheet.
Congratulations Gunnar (or commiserations!). I can give you detailed instructions of where and how, as I've stayed several times in Ebensfeld and know the area pretty well.
Re Martin at Unterneuses, I can't remember now but did someone write that they had been there recently?
Their website is up and running and they claim selbstgebrautes Bier frisch vom Fass... Fwiw.
Re: Martin, Unterneuses:
Looks like they had stopped brewing for a few years and took beer from Hummel, Merkendorf, then started up again at the beginning of last year.
I can confirm they were brewing again last year and that the beer is fine.
Unless anything has happened since.
Thanks Jason. Can't beat an eye witness - maybe a mouth witness?
Hmmm, I think you’ve done ok Mark... but yeah he’s very impressionable. Charisma is one word but I’ve got others.
Yeah well I suppose I am being nice about it. Next time we're in Catwheezle late at night I might tell a different story.
I know this thread has gone off into all sorts of unrelated topics, but perhaps getting it to somewhere close to the original post.....
I watched the video. I don't understand German. One thing I found interesting is that I thought Mahrs doesn't brew wheat beers anymore, sourcing them from Gutmann. I noticed that a Herr Gutmann appeared in the video. My question: did the video explain that the weizenbock was brewed at Titting, and is it normal in Germany that a beer brewed in a different brewery should feature in a yearly event taking place at the tap of another brewery?
Mahrs replaced their own weizen with Gutmann's. However they still brew their own Fettagsweisse and the Weizenbock. The introduction of Gutmann is actually one of the positive developments as their weissbiers are excellent. So throughout the year if you order a weizen in Mahr it will be from Gutmann unless it's the Fettags or Bock.
Herr Gutmann was talking mainly about how they have a tasting each Friday at Gutmann featuring beers from other breweries and that the Mahrs bock would feature this week (their own Weizenbock is better, ironically).
To your question; as stated the bock isn't brewed in Titting afaik. Mahrs haven't used Gutmann to contract brew, they have merely taken their Weizen so they don't have to brew their own version themselves (just brewing lagers is much simpler). Hence it IS common is for the brewing of Weizen to be outsourced - Spezial weizen isn't brewed in Bamberg, though the malt used is malted at the brewery and then sent to another brewery to brew. Other small breweries often don't bother brewing a weizen (e.g. Hoelzlein) but they serve Weizen from another brewery (in Hoelzlein's case, Grasser) due to the popularity.
As i say, Weizen is complicated to brew, requiring a different yeast, malts and brewing procedure. This is why you have a number of Weissbier only breweries, e.g. Schneider, Wiehenstephan, Gutmann, Karg etc.
I believe that Reblitz in Nedensdorf brew their own Weizen as well as beers made from spelt and oats (?). Andy and self tried the spelt last year and weren't too impressed.
I don't know much about brewing Weizen but I understand that a thorough cleaning of the tuns is needed after and before barley beer is brewed in the same equipment, which puts off many small breweries.
Reblitz's weizen is excellent, I can't comment on the other grain varieties.
Remember that Weizen uses a % of wheat, usually 40-60%, the rest is barley in order to provide the enzymes for fermentation as wheat is does not lend itself to sugar conversion. The cleaning is one factor (irrespective which style it has to be done) but as you use an ale yeast it alters the process. Wheat is also very turbid so requires more hands on attention to ensure the mash doesn't clog up. It needs to be warm fermented as well which would mean some alterations I guess. The temperature of fermentation affects whether you get more banana flavour (c.72 degrees or above) or clove flavour (below c.72 degrees).
At the end of the day it's a speciality.
Dredged from the vast amounts of trivia residing in my brain...
Many of the larger German Wheat Beer breweries will filter out the fermentation yeast and bottle with a lager yeast -- for stability reasons we were told (Schneider is an exception). However, lager yeast by law can only be grown in wort that is 100% barley malt. If the wheat beer was an even 50/50 wheat/barley adding the lager yeast will tip this over to over 50% barley which is a no-no, so they will brew the original beer with 55% (or more) wheat so this doesn't happen.
Malted wheat does have enzymes and a 100% wheat mash in theory could work (though it would take longer for conversion). The problem is malted wheat has no husk and it is the barley husk that provides the main filter medium in a traditional lauter tun (some breweries use a plate filter mechanism instead but I don't know if any do in Germany). Wheat malt also makes for a gummier mash and too much wheat can make the mash "stick." Homebrewers got around the husk issue by using oat hulls but I don't think that would work on a commercial scale.
And BTW, Weihenstephan does brew some decent lagers (decent in the universe of German beers available in the US, not decent in the universe of Franconia beers)
Re Weihenstephan, that's true. But i'm fairly sure it's a recent phonmenom.
Thank you Jason for the detailed explanation, and others for their helpful comments.
Doing a bit of research, it seems Gutmann have at least two beers sold under their name that are not wheat beers (Spezial and Untergarig). They do not advertise them on their website. I wonder if Mahr's or some other brewery make them for Gutmann.
Seems a bit naughty to slap your name on a beer brewed at some other brewery, as seems to be the case with many of these wheat beers.
You're welcome. I would be cautious about saying "many of these wheat beers". It isn't uncommon but it's also not the norm.
I am 99% sure that Mahrs does not brew anything for Gutmann (which is roughly 4 x as big by output). Whether they are brewed elsewhere I'm not sure, but I wouldn't necessarily rule out it being brewed at Gutmann.
Cuckoo brewing is of course very popular these days outside of Germany... I'm not sure I'm too bothered as long as there is a logic behind it.
Interestly i heard yesterday from a local friend that Fassla have brewed a Kellerbier to an original Brauerei Doppel recipe for the Ahornskeller which they have recently taken over. Br. Doppel was a short lived brewery from the 60s from the same family that owned Kaiserwirt (bombed out and closed in 1945). I'm not sure of the connection to Ahornskeller which was connected to Brauerei Einhorn - perhaps the recipes aren't available. My friend said the recipe hasn't helped Fassla's usual standard so I have low expectations. Sums up the general attitude to Fassla beer among Bamberg's beer fraternity.
I thought Mahrs might be taking Gutmann beers in their outlets in exchange for having one or more of their lagers brewed in Bamberg. Besides the brewery tap, Ahornla im Sand get their weizens from Gutmann for instance, and Mahrs supplies that establishment.
Do you mean the Einhornskeller on Jakobsberg?
Yes but Ahornla has a choice to have Mahrs beer. It’s not a Mahrs establishment. Gutmann is popular in Bamberg, you can get it in a number of bars.
Theres only one ahornskeller, yes am jakobsberg. It was taken over by fassla recently, you used to be able to get Sonne beer there, so it’s a downgrade. The guy who runs in demanded fassla supply a kellerbier especially or he would shut. Reports are it looks suspiciously like the Lager.
There is a brewpub/micro (Modist Brewing) in Minneapolis with one of these "mash filters".
I talked to a worker a year ago, said it cost $1,000,000, and I'm sure it's much smaller and less expensive than a large brewery would need.
I don't see how a small operation can afford that.
In my few visits to Modist, the beer has been inconsistent.
Much as I admire Mark's wonderful homemade kit, I don't think that I've got time and space to emulate. So, I've been looking at ready-made systmes. So far, the Grainfather looks about the best and isn't so expensive.
Not got the time Barry? IMHO The Grain father looks grossly overpriced.its a Burco boiler plus some plastic pipe and twenty quids worth of gadgets.
I'm very happy with my Braumeister, Bavarian-built, but it was expensive! Ideal though if you want to recreate German-style beers.
Time, Andy, yes, reasonable amount day to day, I was more thinking of long-term! If you can tell me how to put a small-scale kit together with moderate ease, I'd be happy to learn.
John, yes, looked at the Braumeister - it's awful expensive; not sure if Franken type beers are my target, happy to brew ales - at the moment!
I will email with some ideas Barry.
it seems that she has tired of the Ruhrgebiet (no surprise there) and her man and is returning to bamberg.
Watch this space!
Ooer! Suppose that you'll be writing her references?
Mmm, good to hear.back to rude piss poor service then.
Yes... that’s something my friends an I had a laugh about yesterday. Double edged sword and all that!
Will she return to Spezial?
I’ve heard she will be tapping the beer. Which would be perfect. The best of helga without the slow service and occasional attitude. Herr Merz knows what’s what.
Thanks for that.
Where are the Hopfengarten beers brewed? They seem to have very eclectic range.
Keesmann... at least normally.
We leave early for our zoigl trip on friday 23third March. We wanna hit Seinsheim in their opening hours 16-20 But their website is not Updated. I mailed Them twice without any answer. Then I had Some feedback that worried me even more about them not wanna sell beer to foreigners and such. Anybody have in info on this?
Cheers and Thanks!
The opening hours are uptodate.
As for their message, I can kind of understand, if the reasons behind are what i believe they are (i.e.. I'm pretty sure it isn't some form of racial discrimination). It's a small village and the brewery open days are a community get together - everyone knows each other. They have very limited capacity and a lot of local customers so they cannot brew enough for their regulars. I had to order 6 bottles 1 month in advance.
So a group of 'foreigners' come wanting to buy beer to take away is not something they welcome. Just show up, drink a beer and move on, I'm pretty sure this will be fine.
Beer tourists are not always welcome, we should remember that. Some people have a view that they are 'helping' these breweries to survive by giving them custom - very noble, but not the case. Heckel closes Saturday evenings April-October because they don't want drunken groups coming in after tourng the local breweries for example. Big groups are discouraged because they disturb the ecosystem of the pub. Understandable.
Outside of Bamberg it's the locals that sustain the breweries, not inquisitive foreigners.
Truer words were never spoken on this forum than the second half of Jason's post.
Even in Bamberg it's the locals, up to a point
i completely understand that. I leave my hauling gene home. But from What you guys get out of the website they should be open friday 23th march?
yup... every Friday except the first Friday in the month. 16-20uhr.
Beer drinking yes. Revenue (food etc)... would be interesting to see.
Places like Klosterbrau and ambrausianum seem to rely exclusively on tourists. Of course I include German tourists / day trippers in that.
On my first visit to Brauerei Hölzlein in 2001-- arranged by Frank W when he had a car -- like any tourist I was talking pictures. I told Herr Hölzlein that if wanted to see them I would put them on the internet and give him (thru Frank) the address. He got quite upset (not really upset, you know what I mean). Paraphrasing, "Don't put me on the interenet. Then I'll get lots of tourists drinking my beer and I'll have to work harder so that my regulars can have beer. And my Mother won't be able to get a seat on Sunday afternoon." He was really mostly worried about tour buses but you get the idea.
I believe, the situation has hanged in some breweries in the last ten years and they try to get new customers and hold the volume of beer sales:
- We see a decline of beer sales in Germany, also in the most small breweries in Bamberg Country. The breweries have to fight for their sales.
The next generation of brewmasters is more open miind. p.e. Johannes Knoblach, Johann Hölzlein, Sigmund Brockhard jr. (Greifenklau etc.:
. The breweries see that they can sell their beers to Berlin, Italy etc. For some years it was for me a problem to ask the brewery Knbolach for their beers. Now the brewmsster visits beerfestivals in Rome etc. to offer his beers At the last "Bier & Wurst" in Barlin Stefan Zehendner (Mönchaambacher) has tapped his Lager on gravity. The Bamberger Hopfengarten (which ennobles beers from Keesmann) will have a stall at the next beerfestival "Festival der Bierkulturen" in Cologne. etc.
We will try our luck. Thanks guys!
Stopped by for a couple of beers after work at snowy Kaiser. As usual very good, pils and fest weizen. This brewery really has grown on me and is a favourite. If anyone is in bamberg on a Tuesday when Ruhetags bugger up plans try grasmannsdorf, mönchsambach, Burgebrach and debring (all by bus). The latter couple are nothing special but the Keller in burgebrach is very nice.
I also sampled the fastenbier in Schlenkerla yesterday. Well I had 5. It was superb. Obviously it only lasts for 40 days so not such a well known beer. Smoky, unfiltered and 5,5% (and of course gravity dispensed). That’s the extent of my tasting notes.
So, just going to run out the week before I arrive. That's tough.
Completely endorse Kaiser and Zehendner - cracking places and so easy to get to. Debring ok, nice place, beer average, and I haven't been to Burgebrach - yet. Sounds like a nice April outing.
Since the person who seemed to use it the most has left us for the bright lights of Los Vegas -- and I have to admit I have forgotten to use it the past few years -- I've removed it from the page. If anybody wants to start tweeting with the hash tag #FranconiaBeer let me know and I can resurect it.
That means the lovely picture of the chap holding a book will be forever lost from our view. Tragedy!
As many of you know, a rotating group of us have been going to Düsseldorf every year since 1998 for their October release of Sticke. Since 2000 we've been coming to Bamberg as well.
Anyway, this years schedule is posted at www.StickeWarriors.com -- I've also created a Facebook group for those inclined that way.
We'll be starting off in Prague (Oct 7 or so) then Bamberg (Oct 11-15), Düsseldorf (Oct 15-17) and Antwerp (Oct 17-22). If anybody is interested in meeting up along the way, just let me know.
The beer is to be brewed in Northamptonshire. The article doesn't seem to indicate whether it will be called Mahr's or something else.
‘I’m not sure if this beer will offer Franconian character or reflect it,’ says Michel. ‘The most important thing is to offer the British customer a great lagerbier. Mahr’s Bräu is loved all over the world – that’s the taste I want to bring to the UK.’
I did see the Mahrs U at a number of "modern" London pubs -- the Euston Tap, the Waterloo Tap (which are releated) for example. And I think I saw it at their sister pubs in Sheffield and York, so I guess it makes some sense. But I would sort of expected a tie in the Sierra Nevada or some US brewery -- a "Reverse Stone" so to speak -- as its a much farther difference.
Though maybe this is a Brexit thing -- does anybody know how that will effect beers from Germany? I could see there being a big increase in duties and having the beer brewed in the UK would get around this.
Or you could call it jumping on the band wagon, as there is any number of supposed German style lagers being brewed in the UK now. Presumably, in response to demand?
At least the supposed German-style lagers now being brewed in the UK don't pretend to be German. Remember Greenall Whitley's oh-so-wittily named Grünhalle Lager, Hofmeister, etc?
Oh but they do: my micropub sells lagers from Geipel, which is a brewery run by someone from the USA (I think?), who lives in Manchester and brews in Bala, North Wales. His most regular beers are called Pilsner, Hefeweizen, Dunkelweize, and two that really 'offend' me: Zoigl and the strange Zoiglator - there's a mixed message, if I ever saw one!
Now it entirely up to the proprietor what he brews and what he calls his beers - but who is he kidding? I'm sure if I tried I could find more examples from microbrewers.
I suppose he could point out that Hefeweizen and Dunkelweize describe the styles that he's brewing more accurately than any English translations. Pilsner, of course, despite its geographical identification, has long been accepted worldwide (for example, the authoritative Dutch dictionary Van Dale defines the use of Pilsener in Dutch as meaning "(1) a light [coloured] beer; (2) a glass of such beer", and the Czechs could have a go at the Germans for (mis)appropriating it. Mind you, I share and sympathise with your distaste for the hijacking of Zoigl, although who should feel more ashamed of themselves for this - the German commercial breweries who slap the label onto a bottle of cloudy beer, or the Americans who are doing an IPA on it?
But when all is said and done, how do his beers actually taste? The website suggests that his heart's in the right place: does he really need to label his beers "Hefeweizen-style" or some such? After all, he's not trying to pass his beers off as actually being produced in Germany, which was the case with the German-sounding names given to the "lagers" that I mentioned (a Gothic typeface was used in the advertising material, for example). The borrowing of words to describe styles (of all sorts of products) has been going on for as long as people of different cultures have traded with each other, and we all manage to understand the difference between a slab of industrially produced "Cheddar" cheese and one produced by an artisan who knows the herd of cows that produced the milk.
Any chance of a tasting report on the Geipel beers?
Worse than all this in my view was a trend that I hope has died a death in the UK microbrewing scene - such rubbish as 'cask' lager. What a load of nonsense that was. Sure the beer was often ok but the concept...
In terms of brewing German styles in the UK I have nothing against it so long as they are done properly. They do a generally pretty good job in the US so no reason why not, though their lager histoiry stretches back a long way. The Zoigl terminlology is a nonsense though; it's not a style of beer it's a brewing tradition that really cannot be exactly replicated outside of the Oberpfalz. Ignorence fueling more ignorence.
Finally, Mahr. I was in the pub last week for the first time in 8 months or so. Both the Helles and U were uninspiring shadows of their former selves. Perhaps Herr Michel should focus on getting them back to their best before looking farther afield. Of course, Bamberg is revered amoung beer drinkers who have been here but it remains relatively unknown to most of the drinking world so using the brand in the UK is somewhat optimistic in my view. I'm not fussed either way, good luck to them - it may turn out to be better than what we get here!
If you mean by cask lager, the key cask versions, no they're still around. Of the top of my head, Geipel use key cask but I can't remeber the others. If it's important, I could find out. Actually, I found the key cask idea quite good - as far as I can see, it's more or less a small-scale version of Tankovna or the system used by Roppelt (the once favourite of one of our more prolific contributors) and the Griesskeller - maybe others?
Don't have to repeat my oft repeated views on the Zoigl nonsense.
Oh dear Mahrs, the problem of inheritance, I'm afraid. How many businesses have I seen ruined by descendants? I wonder if Herr Michel has increased the profitability of the company by his policies?
I mean the brewing of ale (top fermented) and calling it a lager. Schiehallion by Harveistoun was an example - a good beer, but not a lager. Just using a lager yeast, European hops and a few weeks extra cooling does not make it a lager. Does Kolsch taste like an cask ale? No.
I'm not so fussed how they serve it - if they brewed a proper lager I would expect it to be colder than a real ale. The carbonation needs to be right too. It surely can't be cask conditioned either. It's just different.
Although I have been a strong critic, i think 'ruined' is a little too much. Ruined for me/us but others would be perfectly happy.
Yeah I think it's a long way from ruined. In fact, for all we know, the business is healthier than it has ever been. Although I do lament the loss of the gravity poured U. I just think it was something that made Mahrs even more special. So why give it up? Too bad.
I'm glad I'm bringing two Bamberg newbies with me on my trip in July. It will be interesting to see, without trying to influence them one way or the other, how much will like Mahrs and will compare them to the other breweries in town. I suspect they will like Mahrs a lot but I also suspect they will like Schlenkerla and Spezial better.
Of course I didn’t mean the business (nor did Barry) just the beer. Still a great pub.
I think the brewing side has gone down though, not just the dispense method. Good beers remain good beers on keg or even in the bottle, they are just elevated on gravity (normally). As always it depends on your preference.
But both the helles and U were average - and believe me I wanted them to be good, I wasn’t looking for fault. As a plus they have replaced their own weizen with Gutmann.. so there’s a positive.
It will be interesting with your newbs... thing is of course you might have a beautiful sunny afternoon in the Mahrs beer garden - who knows, and who really cares, if you’re on holiday you don’t tend to give many s****.
Well I know you didn't mean the business but Barry did say "How many businesses have I seen ruined by it's descendants." so that's kind of what I was replying to. Now I know Barry really is more talking about his dissapointment in the decline of a beer he used to truly enjoy. I think. But he may be right about the business as well. Time will tell. It just doesn't appear that way from the surface.
As far as the beer quality itself goes. I wish I could really tell the difference between the beer today and years ago. I admit I haven't had it often enough to be that tuned in. I haven't been there in about 2 years now but will go in July maintly because I want my friends to get the full Bamberg experience and well I'm curious myself.
Chaps, it was a kind off hand comment that referred to both the financial aspect and the 'quality' of the business. I've seen good, well-run businesses (good working conditions and also making a bit of money - not too much though!) destroyed by children who haven't a clue and no interest other than just asset stripping.
Re Mahrs: you've probably seen Gerhard's posting about Mahrs' tie up in the UK on FB, but, for those who haven't: [http://imbibe.com/news-articles/beers/from-bamberg-to-braybrooke-exclusive-story-of-this-years-most-interesting-new-beer/ ] will take you there.
Sure you'll like this:
Interesting where this thread has led.
On Zoigl, as Mr. Cowley says, it is too bad the Germans don’t sort themselves out on this. I wonder how many German drinkers know the difference between genuine Zoigl and the imposters. Has there ever been an initiative to define Zoigl properly and legally?
Cask lager. Don’t really understand the problem with this or why it should be a “load of nonsense”. If a beer is brewed with lager yeast at lower temperatures, then cold stored for a month or more, it is a lager. Certainly putting it into a cask to let it naturally develop a mild carbonation isn’t such a bad thing, if you like cask beer.
Frankly, I wish I had a brewery like Geipel around here. There is little decent lager about and the micros who do brew one seem to use Carling or Fosters as their model of excellence.
Just on Zoigl: yes, the Zoigl brewers of Eschawo, Neuhaus, etc.,etc., tried to get preferntial treatment for Zoigl but it was rejected on the grounds that is wasn't a different beer, i.e. one that was brewed to a different recipe ,etc., etc. Probably true, it is the tradition of Zoigl that is important, not the beer.
Because they didn't have the money to pursue this through the law courts, the decided to try to 'trade mark' the name 'Echte Zoigl'. Were they successful in the sense of protecting the concept? Probably no. But they are a bunch of small part-time business people, part-time brewers, in 5 different small towns, separated by quite a lot of kilometres, fighting against a lot of money. It just wasn't worth their while proceeding.
I could discuss this all day and all night but people on this Forum have heard it so often, they probably wish I'd go away - but someone has to do it!
If I said Lager yeast then that was my mistake. Ale yeast, warm fermented, European hops and cold stored (after warm fermentation). Then served on cask. Sorry but that’s an ale in my book.
On Zoigl, they have tried. Not sure who mr Cowley is but simply saying “the Germans (whomever they are) should sort themselves out on this” is a little simplistic. It’s hellish expensive and is a matter for the EU aa far as I’m aware. Anyhow the stipulations would be a nightmare.
Ah Mr. Cowley on our forum... sorry. Yes of course it would be great if Zoigl were protected. But Barry will explain why that isn’t possible. Despite efforts to do so.
Thank you very much barry for explaining the Zoigl situation.
Perhaps it is simplistic to expect this to be easily taken care of. Doing a bit of research, I looked in Steve Thomas' Good Beer Guide to Germany, written in 2006. He said that "Zoigl" was produced by about a dozen commercial breweries in Germany. A quick look at Ratebeer now shows many more German breweries using the name. The Wurth Brewery in Windischeschenbacher used to produce just two beers out of seven called Zoigl according to the GBGG. Now it seems all their beers are called Zoigl (including, most shamefully, a Zoigl Radler) and they have renamed their website wurth-zoigl.de. I guess it would be silly to expect them or others to stop using the Zoigl name without a huge fight.
Yes, he doesn't call his beers Hofmeister or any of the other ersatz German names but, I think that the uninformed would get the impression that s/he is drinking something German - but I suppose that's the idea. Actually, it's not a lot different from calling a beer IPA when it bears no relation to IPA. If you read this Forum regularly, I won't have to tell you about my views on so-called Zoigl!
I haven't drunk a lot of Geipel beer - I don't like Weizen, so they're out; I did try to Zoiglator and the Zoigl about a year ago and they were nothing like any of many different ypes of Zoigl that I've had (I reckon by now, I've had just about all the Echte Zoigl beers). Other than that and that I didn't particularly like them, I can't remember anything about them. Quite a few places around North Wales sell them, so I suppose they must have found a market.
In this special case (Mahrs U) the background is a friendshiip between Stephan Michwel and three english friends. It is not a strategic economic decision of the Mahrs Bräu, but "a little help for my friends".
Gerhard, it doesn't sound like that from herr Michel's publicity talk. Sounds like a full-scale activity. He seems to have a lot of brewing friends worldwide!
Do you know how the beer will be marketed? Under the Mahrs name? Braybrooke? Mahrs/Braybrooke collaboration?
The last few days have been unseasonably warm in southern Germany, 13 degrees i think in Oberfranken yesterday. Possitively balmy (or barmy, for January).
Although winter will return, the past few days have stirred up thoughts of Spring. Have I mentioned how rubbish the winter is here? Sure it's different for a while, but i'm over it now. On the flipside, it does make one appreciate the Spring... the smells and sound of nature, the symphony of glasses klinking and the gentle hum of contented drinkers from a nearby beer garden. The gradual warming of the sun...
Perhaps the arrival of spring will wake up the forum, where it's been pretty quiet without N... (ahem), in general. I don't have a huge amount my end admittedly. I have been mainly frequenting Spezi, Schlenkerla, Doerfleins and Rothenschild with the odd farther afield brewery thrown in. I nearly went into Faessla the other day (Barry), but our table in Spezi wasn't fully reserved so we stayed. In a beginner kind of way I'm becoming quite good at Schafkopf.
Spring is a lovely thought. Especially after this frigid winter we've had here. I actually found myself looking at Franconian bus schedules today out of boredom looking forward to bier keller hiking in July.
Ah well two more months of winter to go here. I've got a busy beer travel schedule lined up this year. I'm anxious to get on with it.
Ha, wow! Bus timetables?! :) Try google maps with the satelite images, you can rehearse the walk right up to the door of the brewery :)
If only Germany would allow that.
I have done that though for other countries. And actually it does come in handy for figuring out directions in places like Prague where it could be confusing. First time I drove into Prague I drove straight to the hotel though all the narrow confusing streets without having to use GPS. My friends were astonished. How did you do that? Well I practiced (virtually). It really is an amazing tool.
.... and for the record lest anyone think I'm nuts. I don't recommend driving into Prague. I don't do it myself except that one time years ago and that was mainly because we needed a car for other stops on our itinerary. I just take that bus from Nuremburg nowadays. It's very easy as you know Jason.
I've done that with a couple of bike tours -- taken to the next level: If you can convert your route to KML you can load it into Google Earth and it will "fly" along your route. In places where there are hi rez satelite images it will even try to make it 3-D.
What I did was use QuickTime (I'm a Mac guy) to record this flyover and make it into a video which was loaded on my iPad. Each morning we would do a quick review of that day's ride. It really helped in a couple of tricky spots where the maps were unclear.
Strongly recommend to visit Spezial now. There is some Bockbier on tap left from December, and the new U is on tap at the same time. Do not miss that constellation!
Indeed, I was in last night and indeed tried the bock. Losing it's smoke unusually, but still good.
The 'new' U? Been around many years now.
All getting a bit lyrical now - but why not. Lovely day here as well, I've just put out the washing!
That sulphury nose, amber colour, slight caramel, subtle hops, low carbonation... Discuss (25 marks).
(To follow: Dunkles is dark mild and Abt 12 is a Scotch ale.)
I have never smelled sulfur in Mahrs U (nor in Bass for that matter).
You would if you'd drunk cask conditioned Bass.
Ah. Can't say I ever had Bass from a cask.
It's ok Jim, had a pint last week but, like so many beers, it's changed greatly over the years. It's lost that great yeasty taste that U reminded me of. Of course, it's now brewed by Marston's but not in the Yorkshire squares.
It does beg the question what's in a name? You've got Young's, which is now 2 breweries away from its origin, Courage, I don't know how many breweries away, and you could go on and on. Surely a case could be made under the Trade Descriptions Act about ththe veracity of these names?
The original Draught Bass was brewed using the Burton Union system. Bass stopped using them, I believe, around 1980. Marston's took over brewing Bass, but don't use their Unions for anything except Pedigree, if I am not mistaken.
Not sure where Yorkshire squares fit into this at all.
With so many great beers around being brewed by the breweries which actually exist, I have never understood why there is so much concern about beers from breweries which are long dead.
I'm not sure anyone is particularly concerned... but these days there is very little scope for brand loyalty. Many of the breweries in the UK have been around for no more than 5-10 years. Bass would have been drunk by a lot of people in the 60s and 70s and I guess has a legendary status, even though it is no longer what it was (as I understand).
If (heaven forbid) in 30 years Spezial was bought out and production transfered and the brand abused as Bass was I imagine I would bore many younger people about the legendary spezial of yesteryear. Taste is one of the main triggers of memory of course, so it's not just the beer that people yearn for, but the memories and youth that come with it. It's not so simple as merely being a liquid that can be replaced.
But of course these days with an almost obsessive demand for variety and taste escalation, the liklehood of modern breweries' beers being remembered in 50 years' time is remote. When i think about the best British beers I don't think about many micros - in spite of some of their undounbted quality. I think of Bathams and Harveys.
Yes, I guess I can understand the nostalgia for these beers. It's just when the brewery has been closed for years and years and the beer changed beyond recognition that I don't understand the loyalty. Why not support actual breweries that exist rather than dying brands being milked by large corporations?
As far as recent breweries brands being remembered in 50 years all I can say is that probably some will and some won't. Some of the UK micros that started in the 70's and 80's are still around and rather popular. Think Crouch Vale, Nethergate, and Ringwood (now owned by Marston's but still brewed in Ringwood). One of the pubs in my village stocks Butcombe Bitter (1978). There are now quite a few breweries that started as micros and are now just as big or bigger than many of the old family firms.
I like both Bathams and Harveys, but even if I lived in the Black Country or the South Downs I wouldn't only drink those beers to the exclusion of newer ones.
Anyway, to each his own.
This is very interesting. First, apologies for getting Yorkshire Squares and Burton Union mixed up. Of Course, it's the Burton system that is used for Pedigree and for Pedigree alone. As an aside, I wonder why so many of the younger real ale enthusiasts turn their nose up at Pedigree? IMHO, it's still a good beer and one of the few that you can easily get bottle-conditioned (cheap as well, £1.27/500 mls in Lidl!). Yorkshire Squares are a related system of brewing used once upon a time widely in - Yorkshire!
I tend to agree about beers that have changed (see my last post) but there may be exceptions to the rule, as this article suggests (https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/analysis/video-can-you-tell-midlands-tetley-s-from-the-yorkshire-original-1-4596400). I've had the new Tetley's and it's quite good. I also drank the old version during my days in Leeds (1974 - 77) but I don't think that my taste memory can honestly tell me how the two compare.
Having now drunk a lot of the micros in the last 12 months, I can say that there is,generally, quite a difference between them and the older beers. I think that it mainly is due to the hops used. So many of the new breed of brewers have become infatuated with new world hops and in producing these crisp, citrussy beers - Golden ales and the like. Now, I quite like some of them but some are just bloody awful - really experimental brews that shouldn't have been let out of the brewery!
In the last few weeks, I've been going to a couple of pubs that tend towards the older breweries and, really, I prefer them. I'm sure that this is down to age and we tend to like those things that we remember from our youth. But, and I've said it before, there's nowt wrong with Fuggles and Goldings and with beers that are around 4%.
I think that the conclusion to this little discussion is variety. As Tom said, if i lived in Dudley i would drink a lot of Bathams but I would also want to try other beers, probably regularly.
It's another topic entirely but the problem comes when landlords do not cater for every taste. It's hard, especially with real ale and the challenges as a modern landlord, but having 5 hand pumps and 5 of them are dispensing pale, hoppy beers is not variety, and it's killing traditional styles (the same applies to strength, a good range is important). Again, it's a challenge ordering the beers, rotating them in the cellar and planning ahead, but the best landlords put the time and thought in.
It's interesting, I learned recently that historically German beers were weaker than today, around 4-4.5%. And Weizenbocks were a pitiful 5.3%-5.5%. From Ron Pattinson so, a reliable source. I recall (though I may be wrong) that it was down to lower attenuation (perhaps obviously), I'm guessing due to rudimentary brewing equipment. It would explain why the Czechs still brew low gravity beers and indeed that their premium strength beers are a few degrees lower than the German equivalent. But this is getting into science and serious beer history, niether of which i am qualified to speak of.
I think that you can take these things too far but...
If you go back in the Forum far enough (not advised), you can find my reaction to my first taste of Mahr's U - BA, mind you, not the dumbed down product that we get today. I was struck by how much it tasted like a pint of old-fashioned Burton-type bitter.
As to the other tastes/smells, I'd have to defer to my friend Jeff Romaines, as the real expert on such matters!
Göller in Drosendorf is now also closed on Tuesdays.
Unfortunately for me I found this out by standing in front of a closed pub, then it started to rain…
After all your received some liquid stuff.
I should say that the opening hours are updated on their (very modern and flashy) website.
Please (all) remember that books and the like are out of date as soon as they are published - always best to check the websites or better still call in advance.
Looking at their range of beers on the website, I don't see a rauchbier. I really enjoyed their rauch on a visit several years ago. I found their regular lager and dunkel to be quite bland.
I said it several times but I think that Goeller Drosendorf is a perfect example of a typical Franken brewery Gestaette. A reasonalbe selection of beer, nearly always good but not outstanding, moderately priced food and very hospitable. Not surprisingly, it is very popular for families.
A few years ago, brewing was taken over by Herr Goeller Senior's son (I'm not sure whether the Herr HGoeller that we knew is still alive bcause he was quite ill last time I met him). Since then, the beer range has been expanded quite a bit. As I recall, the Rauchbier was a seasonal special, brewed only around Easter.
I recall you mentioned you were in bamberg this week... if you see this and want to (and I understand if you don't), I would happily meet for a drink or two at a venue of your choice. Obviously I work during the day but I'm generally back in bamberg between 6-7.
I think I’ll probably be in Keesmann this evening (Tuesday), or I was thinking of checking out Kronprinz as I’ve never been there. Let me know if the latter is a bad idea!
I've been to Kronprinz once since it opened. I wouldn't warn you off but i wouldn't expect much.
Keesmann this evening sounds good. If you see this before let me know a time otherwise i'll probably be there around 7pm. I'm home office today though so can be flexible.
See you in Keesmann then, 7pm sounds fine. I’ll post on here again if I'm going to be late.
Don't worry about that, I'll settle in and grab a helles or two.
See you then.
Far wall opposite the door. Phone out. Pretty full in here.
Hi Barm, good to meet you both last night. Restaurant/Pub in Forchheim is called Voegelgassler:
Maybe see you in Schlenjerla on Friday.
I imagine it is extremely busy on a Friday night even in January, no?
Schlenk? No, extremely busy is full inside and outside (high summer). It’ll be ticking over, but I think finding seats will be possible.
Let me know if you wish to meet.
If you're going to be there anyway we might drop in. Heading to Eichhorn right now but as you know the last bus back from there is early.
Very nice to meet Jason (at last). None of us were terribly convinced by the Keesmann Bourbon Gold, a very sweet beer gaining vanilla notes from the bourbon cask, giving the impression that you are drinking vanilla fudge.
Checking up on zoigl dates and see that 30 march - 2nd April no place in Windisch. is listed as being open? I was there doing easter last year and both Roudn and one other place was open. Could it be that they havent decided yet or does it happen that no places at all is open during a weekend?
I'll check up for you.
It doesn't loom good on booking.com... and the owner had been ill in the last few years.
Hopefully it's just a technical error.
Found an article saying the owners want to sell he hotel as they are getting older. Also, the hotel website now leads to a page about a Gästehaus, run by the same family.
Well that's ther Oberpfaelzer Hof but you could try the Weisse Schwann or the Waldnaab in Neuhaus. Schoilmichel and Teicher are open in Neuhaus, also Zum Posterer in Eschawo (it's not a member of the Echte Zoigl team, so doesn't show on their website.
Oppl is open in Mitterteich and is excellent. Also Wolframsctube may be open, as they haven't published their Termine yet.
It doesn't look good for the Oberpfalzer Hof. It looked like a garage sale when I was there in October. The entrance hallway was filled with junk as it looked like they were in the process of emptying the place out.
It is sad to hear that the end might be near for Hotel Oberpfälzer Hof, but honestly the place has been in need of some rejuvenation for years. The couple of times I stayed there, I rarely saw other guests, even in the breakfast room. Let's hope someone takes it over and gives it some new life as it is one of only two hotels in Windischeschenbach.
Unfortunately, the story of the Hof is the story of Eschawo. It's a small town in the middle of nowhere: the porcelain factory closed down, the glass factory closed down. When I first went there, the Hauptstrasse was full of shops, now mostly gone. The last big shop was Dieter Weiss's shoe shop, went last year. Even the Norma supermarket has gone.
There's no future for the kids who all move to Regensburg or Muenchen. They have tried to exploit Zoigl but then dozens of ppeople have jumped on the bandwagon. Thus, the Echte Zoigl idea, which I have tried to help but, to be honest, apart from my friend Norbert Neugirg, they don't have much in the way of ideas. I mean why would you arrange it that no Stube is open at Easter?
Oh dear, it's not a happy picture.
Thanks a lot for the help guys. We arranged to visit 23-27 March (2 zoigl nights + 2 Bamberg/area nights) Beim Gloser, Schwoazhansl and Schafferhof (Last 2 are new to us all)
Found a cheap apartment in Windisch/nehaus - Gartenstrasse which I think was the only option during our stay.
So next million dollar question is: Which breweries should we stop by driving from Widisch to Bamberg (Been to Heckel).
Lots of good choices there.
Gradl in Leups
Schroll in Nankendorf
Held Brau in Oberrailsfeld
Herold in Buchenbach
just to name a few. If it were me Gradl in Leups would be priority 1 and maybe Pottenstein second.
Rarely I disagree with Mark but hey ho. Pottenstein is a lovely little town but in terms of beer I've never thought much about either (my experience). I would say the beer at Schroll, Held and Herold and Gradl is a lot better.
I've found the beer at Mager to be excellent and a nice little old school type place. Hufheisen is okay but not the reason to go there. Hey to each their own. I'd take Mager over Schroll based on our last visit there. Found the beer at Schroll to be a bit metallic and the place (which looks like it had been remodeled) to be a bit modern and sterile. Admittedly I've never been to Held but added it to my list because I've heard from folks like you that it was very good. Herold I liked a lot (even though as des. driver I only got a little taste) but it didn't seem better than Mager to me.
I might suggest Mads give Pottenstein a try as well as the other places. It is fairly convenient to get to coming from the Oberpfalz
Small correction on my last post: on first visit to Schroll (Nankendorf, not to be confused with the related and wonderful Schroll in Reckendorf) with Juergen, I liked the Dunkel (if that what it is) very much; the second time (with Mark), not quite so much. Re Pottenstein: I was mentally confusing it with somewhere else! No experience of Hufheisen but loved the beer in Mager (another visit with Herr Wening!); Pottenstein is also a lovely town in a beautiful area, well worth a visit!
Leups, Gradl, Held and Herold, absolute musts!
That makes sense. I would have been surprised if you didn't like Mager.
As usual, when you do things too quickly, you make mistakes! I was confusing it with Ebermannstadt and Schwanenbrau, which isn't my kind of at all, although I seem to recall (visit it long ago with Don and Cherie) that the beer was ok.
Haven't been o Schwanenbrau in 5 yrs but have stayed there several times. Beer was ok but hotel wa very nice, food was exccellent and I was treated well. Planning for a return.trip. If you have a car there are lots of excellent beer.
Just for the record, Barry and Mark: When we'll be in this stretch of land next time, Brauerei Stöckel, Hintergereuth, is also a must.
If that's an invitation, Jawohl! Looks great, I wonder why I've never been before?
Yes agreed!. We thought about visiting that one on the last trip through but didn't have a lot of time. Still we managed Gradl, Herold, Schroll in Nankendorf, Scharpf in Heilgersdorf, and finally Sesslach so all in all a great day. But yeah more time could be spent out that way.
Not sure whether I really want reminding of that day! Well, alright, it was great but could have done without the running for a train, oh, and nearly falling down, etc., etc.
Off topic: Mark, I went to Conwy on Wednesday for usual visit to Albion. When we got there, it was closed! But, don't despair, only for one day for 'essential maintenance', whatever that may be. Their sister pub, The Bridge, was also closed and, looking thorugh the window, it seems to have been totally gutted (believe it's going to re-open as a sort of burger bar/pub!). So, we spent the afternoon in The Bank of Conwy. Plenty of money has been spent on this job and it is quite nice but not especially pubby. Four real ales from local breweries, the Heavy Industries Diawl Bach (Little Devil) was nice at 3.8%. Typical modern US-type, with Amarillo, Cascade, Citrus and Columbus hops but well drinkable. I ignored the keg/craft pumps.
For a taste of a real pub, last night, I went to the Red Lion in Old Colwyn - put a note 'in your north Wales visit diary Thursday night, Red Lion' . Super proper pub, nice crowd but not crowded, eight real ales, mixed between old, established and micro's, all at £2.50/pint on Thursday. Perfect! Even better, as the landlord of the Cross Keys was playing pool and bought me a pint!
A trip to the Red Lion on Thursday sounds like a plan Barry. Does public transport back to Conwy run well into the night?
Actually disregard question. Just looked online and answer is yes.
It's not too bad. The last bus is the number 13 at 2302, which goes to Llandudno Junction. From there it's about a 15 minute walk (depending on how much you've drunk, of course) to Conwy. It's actually a lovely walk and is the way that I usually go, across the estuary of the River Conwy, past the Castle, etc.
If you search for Arriva Bus Wales, you can find details of all the buses, timetables, journey planner, etc.
I have stayed at Zum Waldnaabtal in Neuhaus a few years ago, it was very nice, and very close to the Neuhaus Zoigls. I little walk to Windish Zoigls, but not bad.
Of course, if you stay in Eschawo, you have the walk up to Neuhaus - but the esy walk downhill going home!
I like the walk between the two towns. It's a bit of exercise to burn of some of the beer calories and somewhat scenic to boot.
I heard from a friend yesterday that no one answers the phone at Oberpfälzer Hof and that their website is gone.
Any idea if it is possble to rent a cab from Windisch to Falkenberg?
Never tried him but a brother of a friend runs a taxi. Do you want me to enquire for you?
Yes Thanks, Barry. What info do you need?
When do you think that you'll need a taxi?
Can't see it being a problem... just google taxi windischeschenbach and call one of the taxi companies to give the details.
Of course, but, if you did this, you get the person that I was referring to! Trying to give a better, personalised service, as usual!
Sorry I didn’t see your post before posting mine.
As it’s so quiet I thought I’d post something about Klosterbrau. Most regulars will know it has been a rather inconsistent place to drink over the years and up until a few weeks ago I’d only visited once in a few years. However, a friend of mine has been talking about this tapper, Igor, from Hungary, who turns the beer from ordinary into nothing short of fantastic. As the Czech proverb goes “the brewer brews the beer, the tapper makes the beer”.
A few weeks ago we popped our heads in and Igor was behind the bar. We sat in the Schwemme and enjoyed a Milka of pils, a Czech technique of pouring the beer very high but crucially with very fine foam. The level of visible liquid in the glass is probably less than an inch but if you left it sitting it would rise to 2/3 of the glass. The pouring completely alters the taste dynamic of the beer – it’s glorious. We then had a seidla of the pils which was also superbly tapped and tasted pretty good too. It almost looked like a weizen with all those fine bubbles swirling around to eventually settle forming a crown on top that remained throughout, coating the glass with rings of 'Brussels Lace'. The best was the Schwarzla bock schnitt, the creamy mouthfeel giving all the coffee, chocolate and vanilla flavours license to play.
I’m not sure how I can better explain this but all I know is that the beer was infintely better than the usual fayre in Klosterbrau. If every brewery had an Igor then Bamberg would truly be the best place in the world to drink beer, displacing the Czech Republic in my opinion. If only he would move to Spezi or Keesmann…
If you're lucky, I might take you along and if we're lucky, Igor just might be working his magic behind the taps.
I wondered about this Milka in Czechia. Sounds interesting, as I have only recently really discovered the importance of the head or Schaum to the taste of beer. I suppose that, coming from Manchester, I was so used to a nice, frothy head that I just never thought about it.
As a matter of economics, is the price of a Seidla of Milka the same as for a 'normal' Seidla in either/both countries?
I knew that you would ask that question Barry... no, in Prague I've seen it actually more expensive which makes little sense aside from ripping off tourists (in the otherwise good Lokal chain). In Bamberg I'm not sure as we paid together. I imagine it's the same price as technically it is not 'for sale' in Klosterbrau, only Igor does it for people he knows or who ask for it.
I wouldn't drink a Milka often, but it helps to understand how important the tapping of beer is. Milka aside, the head on a beer is so important; it offers protection to the freshness of the product. Like the fine foam atop a well made cappuccino, it should sit atop the liquid and the drinker should drink 'through' it, not the two together. For this to happen it has to be lighter than the liquid, with extremely fine bubbles protecting one another from the air. This can only be acheived by driving almost all of the carbonation from the liquid into the head, leaving the actual beer soft and smooth, not fizzy and prickly.
This happens naturally when pouring real ale or beer from gravity (plus with only a fraction of CO2), but from 'keg' it needs special skill to tap. Plus scrupulously clean lines and cold, wet glassware. Any grease or dust will completely disrupt the head formation. I hate it at home when I forget to rinse my glass or there is some residual grease and the beer foams up, all the carbonation is gone and you're left with a flat, unappetising mess.
As for drinking beer from the bottle or can... well i do sometimes if i'm out or at a party but it really isn't the way to drink beer.
It is i called "mliko" which basically means milk
See also here (time 2:20) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtzNj9d9BIU&t=140s&has_verified=1
A specialty in all of the Urquell Tankova pubs in Prague.
I had Gold Pils and the dark bock on th 28th December. Pretty underwhelming I'd say. The dark malts in the bock tasted like christmas calender chocolate and very artificial all around. The Gold Pils I couldnt drink.
Just depends on how it’s served. Like I said Mads ;)
Maybe Igor was there when Dorothy and I went in October. There beer was fine. Didn't blow me away but we enjoyed it. But there was a guy pouring that I hadn't seen there before.
Anyhow, do you know if they still brew on site there anymore or is it all done at Kaiserdom? Also did you try the Braunbier?
They still brew SOME beer there but as ever with breweries and the like unless you actually know there is no point in speculating.
I'm only chancing my arm here because it's so quiet on the Forum and I know that many Forum readers are really expert with IT issues.
Actually, my question is quite simple: I wish to transfer everything from my antiquated Medion PC, which is running on Vista to my much newer Dell running Windows 10. Vista is actually fine for me but is now becoming impractical as it is not supported by Microsoft.
I've looked at some of the possibilities and Laplink's PC Mover seems the most complete option. I know there are free programmes that offer transfers of files but not programmes and all seem to have their downsides. I don't mind buying PC Mover (it's only £25) but has anyone had any experience of using it or can suggest a better solution?
Sorry Barry, not my bag I'm afraid.
Hopefully someone else can help...
My usual instructions for transfering stuff: "Open up Migration Assistant on the first Mac..."
Back in the day -- 15-20 years ago I did use Laplink to move stuff around. Even came with a special cable with multiple variations of serial port connectors. It worked fine, though slow, (but that was the serial ports). Obviously that is not much of a recommendation for current software.
At first I was surprsised that Microsoft doesn't have something built in -- Apple's Migration Assistant is simple, painless and works. But I realized Apple wants you to buy new hardware so they want moving easy. Microsoft makes it's money (in your case) of the Operating System and that comes with the hardware so they've got their money. And Dell doesn't want you buying an HP or Lenovo the next time so they don't want to make it too easy either.
News that Mark and party are visiting my part of the world in May helped me to decide on April for my next Franken trip. I'm going to stay in Ebensfeld again, same place, which is nice and hospitable, and easily accessible with a VGN card. Also has bikes and I'm a bit more confident now than last year. Having had plenty of practice since on my own machine, I hope to avoid falling off but, then, there's the 5% plus beer to consider!
I'm going to finish off with a week in Prague and hope to visit all the places that I missed last time but also will make a couple of trips out of town.
Sounds good Barry. Spring will hopefully be nice this year, because one thing is for sure, winter in Franconia is awful. Really awful. Forget the cold or snow (minimal) or whatever, just the lack of sunshine is hard to live with. I'm considering vitamin supplements. Or a holiday.
Take the latter Jason, it has much better all round benefits!
It looks like being a really interesting Spring, with the visit to Franken and Prague, where I WILL visit all those places that you listed for me (or try very hard to) and then the visit of the Cape Cod contingent. My local micro (The Bay Hop) has been closed since New Year's Eve (benefits of running a micro), so I've been travelling about to different places and discovered some really good places. All in time for the May visit!
Excellent Barry! Looking forward to it. Spring can't come soon enough. Lots of goods stuff on the plate for 2018 so far starting with Hamburg and Dublin in early April. Visit to your neck of the woods in May (along with Black Country, York and Edinburgh). All set at the Lamp Tavern in Derby. Finally Franconia in July. I need another Festbier binge at Annafest.
I've seen what you mean about winter in Franconia Jason. I did one visit in winter years ago and did not see the sun once for the entire 11 days and I thought to myself "how do these people do it?". Winters can be harsh in New England (it was last week for example) but at least we have bright sunny days (albeit cold) mixed in. German winters just seem to be grim throughout. But hey Meditterean climate is not too far away so there's a temporary solution waiting for you.
True, but it's not quite the same in winter, even in southern Spain. But yeah, better than here. Just moved house so budget strings are tightening.
The thing is there is this 'weather line' that seems to split Bavaria north/south of the Donau. In winter they get predominently sunnier weather near the mountains while up here there's a roof on. And it seems the opposite in summer. Of course this is just a feeling rather than being based on any facts at all (though it's a trend for sure). And I could drive down to the mountains on the weekend which i may do Saturday as the weather looks sunny. But then driving and sitting in the sun with a radler or worse? No fun is it.
I know, hard life. But even biervana has it's downsides.
How’s the weather right now? I’m over next week, do I need long underwear and ice shoes?
No, just a tolerance for rain, wind and depressing skies.
But if you’re from Britain you’ll be fine.
Well, Eschawo is north of the Donau and it seems pretty grim there in winter.. Also, lots of mist and fog - probably because it's on a high plateau, as you helpfully pointed out to me last year!
You Whiners !
Try winter in North Dakota, where I live !
-28C last night and the night before !
(And that's not the coldest we've seen this winter.)
At least it's normally sunny when it's that cold.
I realize you are a little further North, latitude-wise, but I'm not sure that is an adequate excuse!
I'm expecting tropical conditions when I get to Bamberg in April !
In fairness carl, the cold isn't really the problem. It's the sunshine. I'd swap with cold and sunny any day of the week.
Overcast, grey and damp - you can have that if you like.
Back in 1998 (wow 20 years ago) I spent the first week or so of January in Düsseldorf. I wasn't really enjoying myself as much as I thought I would.
I had a very early flight out of DUS to Amsterdam and then a bit of a layover. As I was waiting for my flight it was the first time I was a bit sad about the trip ending. And then I realized: the sun was shining and that was the first time on the whole trip it wasn't grey and dreary (they don't call it "Drizzeldorf" for nothing).
It is epsecially bad for someone from LA -- we usually don't go more than a couple of days without some sunshine, even during the "rainy season."
I think a winter in Bamberg would drive me to drink...
Ah, c'mon. Think of the people living near the arctic circle.
But they are born there and are used to it. I'm not.
After a day in the mountains and some sun yesterday in Bamberg I have charged up my vitamin D levels and feel much the better for it.
Now the 'roof' is back on for a week or so.
It's exactly what you to depress us (and, especially, Jacqueline) about living in the west of Ireland. We used to say that it was like having a concrete roof over your head. although the overall climate in north Wales is not massively different from Co Clare, there's a lot more light and shade, which makes it more bearable.
Don't know about all of the Arctic Circle, Juergen, but I understand that the rate of suicide in many Scandinavian countries is quite high, particularly in winter. I've not spent a lot of time in really northern climes but I found Estonia and Sweden curiously depressing in the summer. I was very hard to sleep in Talinn, because of the almost perpetual daylight (and laco of adequate curtains in the hotel).
Don't suppose that there isn't anything perfect place to live.
Where were the bin liners Barry?
I just opened the 'new discussion topic' page and up popped the picture of your's truly at home with his book! It's like having a personalised website.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a few days, during which I hope to sample the products of Holt's, Robinson's, Hyde's, Lee's, etc., so I'm sure that many of you will gather where I am going. Might be a bit harder to work out the destination for the second leg of my festive tour, where I may get a chance to enjoy Joule's, Titanic, Salopian, and others.
So, just taking the opportunity to wish all old friends and new, a very happy and peaceful festive season and hope that at least some of us will get the chance to meet up over a convivial Seidla in 2018!
Easy, Staffs / Shropshire. Enjoy.
Ive just collected a 10litre barrel of kaiser (grassmannsdorf) festbier after enjoying it very much a few weeks ago. It will accompany my 10litre of Eichhorn dunkel. Don’t judge - my dad likes a seidla or two too. Tomorrow night is a tour of forchheim with friends and Friday I drive to Brittany via Unterbibert (lunch) and Michelsbach (Brauerei Adler) for bottles. Overnight in Homburg.
After new year at franks I will be moving to new premises at the alte seilerei near the Europa Brücke. Hopefully I’ll be all done before 3 kings day on Saturday 6th for stärk antrinken- the Franconian tradition of getting absolutely rat arsed in the name of luck for the coming year. And I’ll have a sofa bed Barry, in case you ‘miss’ any last trains.
Always (normally) keen to meet visitors so aside from the usual suspects if you need any company or assistance just ask.
Fröhliche Weihnachten und einen guten Rutsch im neues Jahr an alle. Bis 2018.
Oh good, I can clopy your greetings in German and use it for all my German friends!
Shropshire actually but only just over the border from Staffs! Well done, should have known that you would guess. I admire your choices for a seasonal tipple, loved Kaiser when I went there with Ronnie and John earlier this year on the way to the excellent Zehendner. Nice people and excellent beer. Unterbibert and Michelsbach definitely Juergen territory. Pity that it's so difficult to visit Adler because the Schmetzer beer is excellent. Have to see whether Juergen can wangle a visit to their tasting room next year.
No problem with Eichorn Dunkel either, seem to remember that it was pretty good when we went a couple of years ago (don't think that it was last year). No argument with any of their beers, only the atmosphere in the Gestaette (better than 'Stube'?) can be a bit cold at times.
Alte Seilerei appears to be some sort of club? The offer of a sofa bed could be interesting - and tempting, might be a rash offer!
So, enjoy your festive season with parents, actually, 20 litres over the period is just a sip for you;I wonder if your dad will get a look in! See you next year.
I’ve got him his favourite; Schlenkerla. Should keep him quiet for a few days. I love doerfleins, great atmosphere and nice people, plus you won’t find a better brewery for my money. But I get that sometimes ad how visitors get a different impression. Different times etc.
Its ts not the club; it’s called Schaeffler 2.0 and includes a number of developments in the old Schlosserei and Seilerei. And you can only use the bed with a recently expired train ticket and a good story including such villains as Messrs Anderson, Illic and fish headed accomplices.
Oh damn, i always buy a Mobicard - but can easily meet the other conditions!
Meant to say, give my best wishes to Frank, hope to see him in 2018. Correction, will see him in 2018!
Ahh but the Mobicard does not dictate when the last train leaves. You simply must miss the last train. So there's your loophole. I'm certainly glad to help with this.
Anyhow, good luck with your move Jason and Happy Hoiidays and New Year to all.
A busy year coming up in 2018 as usual. First Franken visit though not until July. Then I expect also Novermber or December for bock.
Got you and Ronnie mixed up... Messrs Anderson, Andersen... either or but given that I would probably also be party to such debauchery i will be on the look out for fraudsters.
you get the idea. Cheers, all the best to you and Dorff.
Oh sorry I just saw the phrase "fish headed accomplices" and figured it was a reference to my friends from Hamburg as they have been referred to as such being from the North.
But anyhow glad to see you are one of the few that remembers to spell my last name correctly after all.
I did mean our friends from Hamburg...
this conversation is going nowhere. Let’s leave it there haha
Yeah good idea.
I hope everyone had a Merry Merry Christmas. To those who do not celebrate Christmas I wish them them the merriest of merriness. I would like to thank everyone on this board. Thank you Gentleman for you honest opinions. They have made my trip from Boston every eight months better and more knowledgeble.
Happy New Year David! I hope you have some Franconian beer in your future for 2018.
So I have put some feelers out with local experts (Frank) and a resident of Baunach and the responses told me enough without having to go up there and see for myself.
Sippel is not brewing and it is highly unlikely it ever will again. I'm not sure what was communicated but we'll put it down to a langauge issue or some admirable marketing tactics.
If I hear anything to the contrary i will report back. No harm in asking though.
Thanks for the info, Jason. My friend can be a little impulsive, and I can just imagine his enthusiasm getting the better of his limited language capability.
A friend of mine recently returned from a trip and told me that Brauerei Sippel in Baunach is brewing again. Apparently Peter Sippel's daughter, who was brewing under his supervision before his death a few years ago, has started up again. Can any of you locals confirm this?
(If confirmed, presumably Fred will update the entry in the Breweries section?)
Interesting... I will do some digging.
I learnt the other day that Brauerei Hartmann in Würgau now contract brews. Where I don’t know but the old owner died and there was no one to continue. Not a favourite but certainly not bad but either way another one gone.
Thanks, Jason - it's an easy train ride from Bamberg - as I'm sure you know - and I found it interesting to see all the keller doors dug into the side of the hills when I took a walk around the outskirts. Looking at the entry for the brewery on this site, I see that the owner who died was Baptist Fößel - I don't know why I thought it was Peter Sippel. Mind and memory playing tricks, I imagine.
I have to say I am rather skeptical but will pay a visit during the week. I hope she’s improved her brewing skills.
I went there a good while ago just after they ceased brewing,and if memory serves?a local told me the equipment was no longer useable,do to rules and regs.
Due to rules and regs.copper vessels get thin with age and use.(pity I don't!)
I'm actually surprised the Hartmann would stop brewing because of the old owner dying. I met him back in 2008 when we stayed overnight at the brewery inn and he didn't look like he was physically capable of brewing even back then so I just assumed the next generation had already taken over. Too bad.
It's always bad when a brewery stopped but, to be honest, Hartmann is/was one of my least favourite Franken breweries. On a par with Drei Kronen in Memmelsdorf.
Breaking news! Following his flying visit to sunny Colwyn Bay, Erlanger Nick (now on Facebook) has posted a picture of a our North Wales correspondent on his Twitter account (can be seen at the foot of the discussion board).
The world famous author is shown holding a copy of his recent best selling book 'Music in a Breeze of Wind'.
Have yet to read it, sorry Barry.
Everyone would do well to visit Barry in Wales or the Black Country, where "or" actually means "and". The Lamp (or Lamb) in Dudley do rooms for 35 quid with breakfast. Rude not to, etc.
Don't think I'll be on here much in future as I just don't care about beer much any more. I am slowly beginning to use Farcebook, so those that think they need info from me that Jason won't be able to answer can contact me there.
Thanks for sharing the time that day Barry. It was a l-o-n-g drive round to Aberstwherever indeed, in the dark. On the wrong side of the car. I was sober though.
Either or both! People welcome to North Wales, some good pubs within a short distance, at least five local breweries.
I knew that it was going to be problematical to get too far on that journey. But it was good to see you, pity not for longer and a few more beers. Pity also to lose you from this Forum, your pithy and informative comments are always welcome.
Thanks for the recap, Nick. I may just have to visit Barry in Wales one of these days and explore the real ale scene (and say hello to John Cale, one my musical heroes, while I'm at it). Have for a long time wanted to visit that part of the U.K.
It's a nice part of the world Jeff!
Which are the Best oberfranken heller bocks?
And are the breweries normally open between Christmas and N.Y eve?
Best Oberfranken Bockbier I ever had was from Hölzlein, Lohndorf. Just don't remember if it was light or dark...
My personal favorite is Brauerei Hummel in Merkendorf.
They had it available in November last year. I don't know when this year's release was.
Thanks guys. What about opening hours between 27-30 dec. Are breweries normally
open during that period?
There are a lot of good Bocks in Franconia... The diversity down in Franconia is great! My personal favourites are Griess-Bock, Knoblach-Bock and so on...
No one seems keen to help and I'm not really expert but, from what I've seen, the period around Christmas and Sylvester is a bit dodgy for visiting pubs. Contrary to how it is in the UK, German people spend this time at home and don't visit pubs too much, so a lot tend to be shut in the evenings. Ok, open for lunch and early evening but not at night.
Those who live there, please contradict if I'm wrong.
Sorry I've been in Prague the last few days.
I can't really comment on the 'best heller bocks'. The older I get the less i wish to get involved in beer recommendations.
The question of opening hours was answered well by Barry. Each place will have it's own calender of opening and closing so to cast general rules on that doesn't benefit if you choose to visit 3 places that all happen to be shut.
Same rule applies as normal - call in advance, check online etc etc. But be prepared for disappointment. It's not a time of year I recommend.
I just had a check on the Echte Zoigl site (http://zoiglbier.de/zoigltermine/): in Eschawo, no Stube is open from Dec 20 until Binner opens Dec 27 (until Dec 30 only); the next opening is Fiedlschnieder on Jan 5! The other Echte Zoigl towns follow a similar pattern.
Spezial Bamberg is much the same (see http://brauerei-spezial.de/), as I suspect do most of the Stub'n in Bamberg and surrounding country.
So, if you want to drink real Zoigl or good Frankische bier, don't go in Christmas or New Year.
Better get stocked up Jason!
Hmmm... well I’m in Brittany for Xmas and I shall be taking a barrel or two to keep me covered.
Just a note; stub’n are generally cosy pub/restaurant rooms - so in Zoigl country this is correct. But pubs with breweries ‘attached’ are not called stub’n. These are Brauerei Ausschänke, Brauerei Gastätte or Brauerei Gasthöfe. Much bigger concerns. Most people know the latter. Stub’n also strikes me as a Barvarian concept - not really Franconian- though of course exceptions like Fässla stub’n exist.
Not being picky, just trying to prevent misunderstandings from the less familiar.
Just to explain Franconian vocabulary: "Stube" (Hochdeutsch), which is spoken "Schdumm" in Franconia is the Franconian word for "Wohnzimmer" (living room). Alas it's used less by the younger generation. Most pub owners write it "Stub'n", which doesn't make a lot of sense. Anyway. In most parts of Bavaria this word is known as "Stüberl", normally in Oberpfalz as well. So, interesting that they call their Zoigl places "Stub'n".
Nothing is normal in the Oberpfalz!
But, thanks chaps for those comments. I suppose that it is like in the UK, with a plethora of different words for pubs. How many can you think of?
So in Franconia Stub'n means "dive bar". Interesting. Nothing like a liter of Faessla Pils at the Stub'n at 2am.
Okay, if you're a Franconian and if you're going to the brewery pub you're going to the "Wirtschaft" or to the "Wirtshaus" (spoken "Wäddschaffd" or "Wäddshaus"). After entering the Wirtshaus your way instantly leads you to the "Wirtsstube" (spoken "Wäddsschdumm"). Regardless if the High German words "Gasthaus" or "Gasthof" are written onto walls or signposts.
Mark was being funny I think Juergen (and I laughed)...
Again, the Stub'n (High German and bastardised) or Stube, is a room (normally a 'cosy' room, unless you're in Brauerei Faessla, sorry Barry). So Wirststube is the Landlord's room - the best room in the house and where the locals go (usually). The front tap room in Schlenkerla is the perfect example.
Landlord and Wirt are not quite the same though. In Bavaria the general staff serve the beer and food and the Wirt is usually the man who overseas behind the scenes and is in the front of house greeting people and being generally sociable. The guy in Schlenkerla whose name escapes me (looks like Billy Connelly) is a Wirt. Mahr's have a Wirt (but as a smaller concern he also chips in as waiter as well). Heine at Hoelzlein is the perfect Wirt - he welcomes people and makes sure alles in Ordnung ist. Spezi doens't have a Wirt. A lot of the smaller brewweries don't either of course.
I'm sure Juergen will correct if I'm wrong.
Good of you two to try to clear all this up, though, to be honest, not sure that I am much clearer - sorry!
Regarding Stube - yes, a room, understood. It makes sense in Zoigl-land because the front room of someone's house was the original venue for serving Zoigl. The development of such locations into fully fledged pubs/bars/what-you-will is a pretty late development - maybe in the last hundred years or so, not long considering the duration of the Zoigl tradition (in the case of Neuhaus, back to 1415, a hundred years before some obscure ordnance on beer purity was promulgated). I'm not sure whether the practice of serving beer in the living room of the family house can be found Bavaria-wide but I wouldn't be surprised. Apart from anything else, the Kommunbrauhaus and local 'Braurecht' traditions are not exclusive to the Oberpfalz.
As for 'Wirt', I have always found this word to be quite confusing. I understand that it means landlord or host but host can have several meanings; host as the landlord and host as in 'every parasite adapts to its and evolves' (taken from an online dictionary). Ok, as Jason says, you can add Stube and/or Haus and get Landlord's room/house but add 'schaft' (die Wirtschaft) and you get economy - that takes a bit of a leap of the imagination. Again, the suffix 'schaft' has always puzzled me. In itself, it seems to mean shaft or shank, so how does Wirtschaft become economy or Mannschaft become team? Incidentally, what is a female team called: Mannschafterin, Frauschaft? We shoud know!
I can say for certain that a female football team is Mannschaft but they are denoted as Weiblich (female) - it's the same as in English, we don't call a female team anything different. Team is team. A femail footballer would be a Fussballerin.
The term 'schaft' in this case means -ship. Freundschaft - friendship. Wissenschaft - knowing ship (knowledge). Mannschaft - man ship (team). Of course in the latter two it sounds a bit odd in English but they kind of make sense. A ship holds something.
Wirtschaft is a classic example of why trying to understand a language by logic doesn't work unless you go back to the etymology of the word (the website German is Easy is great at explaining how words evolved over time). A Wirt looks after the administration of the house; the running and upkeep and keeping the customers fed and watered. Maintenance and distribution - then you start to see the link. It now makes more sense as 'econony'. The key is to look beyond the literal meaning and at the function. Oekonomie is also economy and is more like the English derivation.
Ok, took me a minutes to work out what you meant by 'ship' - at first, I thought that you were referring to a vessel, then I twigged (gosh, how would you explain that!) that it was -ship as a conditional or demonstrative suffix.
Mannschaft for team is interesting: its root suggests that, in its origins, a team was considered a masculine affair, though I understand that it is a femine noun - how odd. It's interesting that German uses an adjective to denote a female team - why not say Frauschaft? German is good at combining several nouns to make a new noun - such as all the famous examples, such as Unterseeboot, etc, whereas as English just swipes a few words from Latin or Greek, as in submarine.
I'm guessing you've tried most of these, but here are some of my faves that were available in Nov-Dec over the past few visits to Franconia (as always, in my very humble opinion).
Having had the good fortune of trying three different batches of Hoehn Goerchla vom fass, that one remains my all-time favorite heller bock. If you enjoy a well balanced beer which doesn't skimp on the Hallertauer, yet is a full-on melanoidin bomb, this is the one for you. Very high drinkable given its astounding complexity.
Brauerei Wagner Bock Hell (from bottle) is a pleasingly lean hopcentric version that's surprisingly clean yet brimming with old world charm. Very pilsneresque with a tad more muscle.
Bottles of Moenchsambacher Weihnachtbock were very nice, and eight-week-old pours from the lagering tanks were sublime.
Draft pours of Brauerei Eichhorn Bock (Hallstadt-Doerflein) were enjoyed immensely, although that was back in 2009 when I last tried it.
The growler of Uetzinger Metzerbrau Bockbier was well balanced and luscious back in 2013.
Roppelt Bockbier (Hallerndorf) was a crisp an dminerally rendition, if not particularly memorable, from draft.
Huebner Brau Helles Bockbier (draft) was another decent one. As with Roppelt's version, this one wasn't especially dynamic but perfectly drinkable nonetheless.
Thanks Jeff. Hüebner Wattendorf?
Happy to help! Huebner Steinfeld, actually. As for Huebner Wattendorf I would love to try theirs, as I quite liked their Naturtruebes Zwickelpils, but I believe they release their heller bock in May.
Status so far:
Hohn Memmelsdorf - Open
Knoblach - Open
Metzgerbraü - Open
Hölzlein - closed
Zehendner - closed
reblitz- No answer
roppelt - No answer
bayer Theinheim - No answer
gradl Leups - No answer
goller drosendorf - No answer
In case anyone is interested and not yet familiar with this Franconian card game often seen (and heard) in pubs across the region, here is a 'brief' description of the rules:
Firstly, Bierkopf, a simple version of the game.
There are 4 suits (in hierachical order):
There are 8 varients:
Ass (ace) (11 points)
10 (10 points)
Konig (4 points)
Ober (3 points)
Unter (2 points)
9 (0 points)
8 (0 points)
7 (0 points)
There are 3 Trumpfer (trumps - in hierachical order)
The object of the game is to score the most points by winning each hand. It's very tactical and you have to watch which cards have been played to thendecide when to play your best cards. You start with 6 cards and each plays a card per round. You have to play the suit that the first player plays. If you do not have that card you can play any card. If the first card is a Trump then you have to play a trump (but any trump is fine). So if someone plays Ober Eicher then they will win the round, so better to play your weakest trump/card to avoid giving them points.
That's it in a nutshell. Often you will play with another player (there are always 4) and then you have to help each other against the other two. Again this is where knowing what cards have been played is important. Schafkopf is the same in terms of the cards and rules except that there are mini games you can play where you either team up with other players or go solo. But i haven't mastered these yet.
Thank you very much! I can't count how many games I've watched in Stub'n without having much of an idea of what's going on. I've even been invited to play! Don't think that I'm up to that yet but could be on my way.
Fortunately I’ve some patient friends to help me learn... not sure I’d be keen to be thrown into the pit with locals... you need to practice, I’m just a beginner.
I'm fine, only made it to Aberystwherever though. In the dark.
Now I understand about the trains here.
Thanks for the book. May make it to Bath today, via St David's.
Given into the farcebook, ta Jürgen's for t' help!
Yep, trains are a bit tricky in parts of Wales.
All connected on Facebook. Enjoy Bath. Make sure that you go to the Bell and the Star and give me a report.
Went to visit breweries Scheubel (Schlüsselfeld) and Bayer (Theinheim) yesterday to fetch beer boxes for a minor festivity tomorrow. Have to say that this time I found the Helles at Schlüsselfeld extraordinary compared to former visits. The dark Festbier - with a hint of smoke - was as brilliant as always. The Landbier at Theinheim was premium class as always.
I don't know how long ago it was that you had tried the Helles at Schluesselfeld but I had been there thanks to Gerhard driving me, Jimbo, and Ingmar around to places (Theinheim included) in July of 2015. I thought the Helles was outstanding then and yes the Festbier also. It's a place that needs to be visited more I think.
Was at Schluesselfeld a few weeks ago with Frank. I had a 0.25 of the helles as i was. I thought it was very good, but I'm not sure i'm quite in the same place as Mark or Juergen (on this ocassion). Very tricky place to get to without a car though Mark.
I've been to Bayer once and liked the beer a lot - I think i will visit this evening on my way home :)
Good idea, Sláinte! Think they also have a Bock on now.
So I visited Brauerei bayer in Theinheim this evening on the way home from work (well it's a bit out but worth it). Their Landbier was as juergen said; clean, hoppy and very drinkable - excellent. But their dunkel doppelbock, served in lovely 33cl glasses is a world beater. The best dark beer i've had in Germany. Without question.
Thick, rich chocolate, coffee and vanilla, totally unlike any German lager I've ever had. They also have accomodation for anyone interested, prices from EUR28 per person, and there are buses from Bamberg in the afternoon/early evening but there is no way to get to the brewery by public transport and return the same day. Bus there, overnight, bus back (very) early morning, or lunchtime. The food looks great so although a bit of a faff it would be worth it.
I know what i'm buying a few litres of for Christmas...